Originally posted by 37818
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Counterfeits.
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostInteresting that you as an unbeliever know what God would do and what He would not do.Last edited by Doug Shaver; 03-14-2017, 01:47 AM.
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostInteresting that you as an unbeliever know what God would do and what He would not do.
1. Does God want his message to be received by mankind?
2. Does God care if the message is garbled?
3. Is God capable of (i.e., sufficiently powerful) ensuring the message is not garbled?
From what I have read of the Christian religion, I think the answers are "yes, "yes" and "yes" respectively. If you can say what I have got wrong, perhaps we can discuss it.My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/
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Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View PostIf Jesus Christ were present in the US today, or in any other country, He would again be done to death.
In fact the rest of your paragraph contradicts you:Very likely by the kind of people whom one might think would be certain to recognise Him. He was found to be mortally offensive by some. because He and His Teaching were a mortal threat to what they held dear. That would presumably not change, if He preached today. And He does, through His Church. One either believes He is Present and Active in His Church, or one does not. What the Church has to do, is to represent Him, without our sinful fallen egotism getting in the way.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostAs Gerbil noted, your argument assumes it conclusion.
Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostWhy not? A religion needs followers in order to survive, and it needs a large number of followers in order to dominate a large fraction of the world. No matter what you're selling, product variety is a highly reliable way of increasing market share.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostIn order for there to be a counterfeit, there has to be the genuine article. Only what is deemed to be of value is counterfeited. Christianity is not the only belief system. Yet it is the one with more counterfeits.
So when a counterfeit Loch Ness monster is found in Scotland that proves the real one exists?Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101
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Originally posted by The Pixie View PostYou are a Christian, can you tell me if I got it wrong?
1. Does God want his message to be received by mankind?
2. Does God care if the message is garbled?
3. Is God capable of (i.e., sufficiently powerful) ensuring the message is not garbled?
From what I have read of the Christian religion, I think the answers are "yes, "yes" and "yes" respectively. If you can say what I have got wrong, perhaps we can discuss it.
". . . But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this age hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. " -- The Apostle Paul, from his 2nd letter to the Corinthian church.
So, if you would: What would you explain that gospel message to be? And why do you suppose it should be wanted to be believed?. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostIn order for there to be a counterfeit, there has to be the genuine article. Only what is deemed to be of value is counterfeited. Christianity is not the only belief system. Yet it is the one with more counterfeits.
So your argument leads to a contradiction.
(not that this will stop you)Last edited by Roy; 03-14-2017, 08:06 AM.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostIn order for there to be a counterfeit, there has to be the genuine article. Only what is deemed to be of value is counterfeited. ...
http://myfirstclasslife.com/top-10-l.../?singlepage=1
Not all these guys made their millions out of Christianity, but it looks like m ost did. I have never heard of religious leaders in Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism making that sort of cash.My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/
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Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View PostSo when FOX showed an alien autopsy (counterfeit) that proved a real alien autopsy must have occurred?
So when a counterfeit Loch Ness monster is found in Scotland that proves the real one exists?Last edited by 37818; 03-14-2017, 08:09 AM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostGod's message is not garbled.
Salvation is by God’s grace by faith alone AND by God’s grace received through faith and on-going participation in the work of one’s salvation AND by God’s grace, which Christians receive by faith and by observing the sacraments, because Protestant and Orthodox and Catholic churches have ALL got the message right.My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostIt is counterfeit because there is no real alien to be autopsied. Like the Loch Ness it is something people want to believe. [Why?] Christianity in that vain can be totally false, claims being made that people what to believe, yet is not true. Now are there more counterfeits of alien autopsies than counterfeit money? Why does Christianity have more counterfeits than any other faith system - evening if it being false? What is the perceived value? Why should we want to believe that which is not true?
You're working from the idea that the real thing, or something closer to the truth, would elicit more counterfeits.
I agree with your thinking here - but I still believe it is a weak argument.
The problem with that line of reasoning is that it is also rational to believe there are more counterfeits of Christianity because it has been attached to every major world power over the past two millennia. It would make sense for someone to mimic the religion of the powerful. Also, because of it's wide spread influence every nutcase that is raised in the system will couch his insanity in Christian terms.
So while I agree with you I don't find the line of reasoning very convincing.Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101
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Originally posted by Roy View PostIf Christianity has more counterfeits than other religions, and counterfeits mean there has to be a genuine article, then the fewer but still existent counterfeits of Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, atheism, Bahaiism, Buddhism, etc mean there must also be genuine versions of each of those (non-)religions. But Christianity and Judaism/Islam/Buddhism etc contradict each other, so it is not possible for there to be a genuine Christianity and a genuine Islam/Shinto/Vodun.
So your argument leads to a contradiction.
(not that this will stop you)
Counterfeits what ever they maybe of, are an affront to truth.
Now from the perspective that there is really no such thing as God, all God claims then would be an affront to truth.
What I am pointing out is Christianity has more counterfeits as a belief system that all the other religious belief systems combined. I believing there is a genuine Christian faith as to be found in the Bible.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by The Pixie View PostReally? So all those different denominations; they have ALL got it right?
Salvation is by God’s grace by faith alone AND by God’s grace received through faith and on-going participation in the work of one’s salvation AND by God’s grace, which Christians receive by faith and by observing the sacraments, because Protestant and Orthodox and Catholic churches have ALL got the message right.
Can you be more specific as to what that gospel message is and why should it be believed?. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View PostAs a Christian apologist (of sorts) I know what you're aiming at here.
You're working from the idea that the real thing, or something closer to the truth, would elicit more counterfeits.
I agree with your thinking here - but I still believe it is a weak argument.
The problem with that line of reasoning is that it is also rational to believe there are more counterfeits of Christianity because it has been attached to every major world power over the past two millennia. It would make sense for someone to mimic the religion of the powerful. Also, because of it's wide spread influence every nutcase that is raised in the system will couch his insanity in Christian terms.
So while I agree with you I don't find the line of reasoning very convincing.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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