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Counterfeits.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    How would you distinguish between the genuine Christian faith and what all the false teachings have have in common that deny it?
    I don't believe I'm able to reliably distinguish the difference between the truth and a lie.
    I've managed to get so many important things in my life wrong as to be wholly discredited.

    ^--- I could be wrong about that.
    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by 37818 mk I
      In order for there to be a counterfeit, there has to be the genuine article.
      Originally posted by 37818 mk II
      Counterfeits can be of somethings which have no existence.
      Direct contradiction.

      Your argument is dead, you just haven't noticed.
      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Roy View Post
        Direct contradiction.

        Your argument is dead, you just haven't noticed.
        I think he has it technically right. a counterfeit is a fake copy of something genuine. You can't counterfeit something that is not real. You can create a FAKE of something that is not real, but that is technically not a "counterfeit" - just a fake. A counterfeit is always a fake, but a fake is not always a counterfeit.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          I think he has it technically right. a counterfeit is a fake copy of something genuine. You can't counterfeit something that is not real. You can create a FAKE of something that is not real, but that is technically not a "counterfeit" - just a fake. A counterfeit is always a fake, but a fake is not always a counterfeit.
          I think Roy is correct.
          Those two statements, regardless of definitions, directly contradict one another.
          Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            What do those denominations have in common that they would deem to have right? Faith alone in what? Faith alone versus sacraments? And where do sacraments come from? They, the sacrament concept are not found in the Bible.

            Can you be more specific as to what that gospel message is and why should it be believed?
            My point is that three major denominations have different messages about how man can be saved. You earlier claimed God's message was not garbled. That would imply that all three messages are correct, despite disagreeing on this vitally important issue.

            I have literally no idea how your response here addresses that at all.
            My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
              I think Roy is correct.
              Those two statements, regardless of definitions, directly contradict one another.
              Counterfeit: 1. made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud.

              So I guess you could have a counterfeit of something that doesn't really exist, like an alien autopsy, in the sense that you are creating an imitation of something that is a real concept (autopsy) of a possible creature. Plus aliens are "real concepts" themselves as characters in popular culture. You could for instance create a counterfeit Star Ship Enterprise for example.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                Counterfeit: 1. made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud.

                So I guess you could have a counterfeit of something that doesn't really exist, like an alien autopsy, in the sense that you are creating an imitation of something that is a real concept (autopsy) of a possible creature.
                I agree - counterfeit gold statues don't have to match actual gold statues, for example.

                37818 mk II also agrees. But 37818 mk I disagrees: "In order for there to be a counterfeit, there has to be the genuine article.".
                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Roy View Post
                  I agree - counterfeit gold statues don't have to match actual gold statues, for example.

                  37818 mk II also agrees. But 37818 mk I disagrees: "In order for there to be a counterfeit, there has to be the genuine article.".
                  yeah in the case of religion, that argument might be true (the cult is trying to imitate a real religion) but the conclusion that Christianity is the TRUE religion because there are counterfeits is a false conclusion. It is imitated because it is popular. That doesn't make it true. Any product or service that is popular will be imitated by people wanting to get in on the "profit" or to scam the public by making up something that looks like the original. Happens all the time in medicine where you get knock offs of prescription meds, many times fake, just to rip off people (like Viagra). Or even with popular products like smart phones. And other religions get counterfeited too. Being copied doesn't mean that Christianity is true, just that it is popular.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    IIRC there are people who make fake homeopathic medicine
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Roy View Post
                      IIRC there are people who make fake homeopathic medicine
                      yeah and there are completely fake religions that are not imitating any real ones. Like Scientology.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Roy View Post
                        Direct contradiction.

                        Your argument is dead, you just haven't noticed.
                        Two different ways of describing a counterfeit. So yeah, that was contradictory.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                          I don't believe I'm able to reliably distinguish the difference between the truth and a lie.
                          I've managed to get so many important things in my life wrong as to be wholly discredited.

                          ^--- I could be wrong about that.
                          The matter of the genuine Christian faith is a matter of salvation. So what would make that difference?
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Roy View Post
                            IIRC there are people who make fake homeopathic medicine
                            You make it sound like there is real... homopathic... medicine. Oh, I see what you did there.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              The matter of the genuine Christian faith is a matter of salvation. So what would make that difference?
                              I'm not trying to be obtuse but I don't understand the question.
                              Could you be more specific? What difference are you asking about?
                              Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                                I'm not trying to be obtuse but I don't understand the question.
                                Could you be more specific? What difference are you asking about?
                                I am arguing that the difference between genuine Christianity and its counterfeits is a matter of salvation. So what I was referring to is what all the counterfeits have in common that is contrary to genuine Christianity. The example I cited (Matthew 7:21-23). The difference between trusting in one's own faith plus works versus trusting in the finished work of Christ alone.
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                                Comment

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