Secular Nihilism

[shunyadragon]

Forgive my denseness, but I must ask you here, is it the use of the term ALL in the quotation of me that you are saying has equivocal meaning?
And is THAT why you included that quote after your definition of Equivocation?
So that ALL and ALL refer to two differing meanings?

[I have since seen that it is not - Thank-you...]

The definition of Nihilism . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is the philosophical doctrine suggesting the negation of one or more meaningful aspects of life.
Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism which argues that life
is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.

Moral nihilists assert that morality does not inherently exist,
and that any established moral values are abstractly contrived.

Nihilism can also take epistemological, metaphysical or ontological forms,
meaning respectively that in some aspect knowledge is not possible
or that contrary to our belief, some aspect of reality does not exist as such.

I went to Merriam Webster online and found this definition:

nihilism

Main Entry: ni·hil·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈnī-(h)ə-ˌli-zəm, ˈnē-\
Function: noun
Etymology: German Nihilismus, from Latin nihil nothing — more at nil
Date: circa 1817

1 a : a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless
b : a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths

2 a : a doctrine or belief that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility
b capitalized : the program of a 19th century Russian party advocating revolutionary reform and using terrorism and assassination

Now, looking at these two definitions, and there are doubtless others that may be better,
I would have to confess that I was taking a more radical understanding,
which would justify the Nihilists of the 19th century Russia that ended up in the Communist takeover...

And that is the literalist understanding that nihilism affirms that everything is nothing...
And that therefore annihilation is the proper course of conduct.



That would seem to be, at least to me, to be a very shallow and superficial take...



Well, that is why I approached it as a fundamental matter, rather than in ways which but borrow the term and then only partially apply it according to other agendas...



The same, of course, can be said of Islamic suicide bombers blowing up themselves and others
for the sake of their rich and meaningful 1400 year cultural tradition
of getting the world entirely submitted to their god by hook or by crook...

The fact of culture would, as you affirm, suggest the absence of nihilism, and yet if life ends at the grave,
irreligious of what your descendants then base their lives upon -
eg venerating and imitating your memory, because you are their ancestor -
then at it deeper meaning, the culture is nihilistic,
and the basis of their ethos is false,
because life dies in the grave...



The fact that adherents to ANY belief system find meaning in their lives in that system is irrelevant to the truth of that system's relationship with its nihilistic basis...
And if your life ends in your death, then your life so understood, is nihilistic...

BECAUSE life is annihilated by death in a nihilistic understanding...

Arsenios

No, life being annihilated at death is not necessarily a Nihilist understanding. It is an assertion on your part.

Equivocation continues . . .

It is one of the traditional theist views that believes if life ends at death, and/or there is no God, therefore . . . It is Nihilism or Nihilist. This is not the definition of Nihilism.

I was hoping maybe you would come back with a better crafted argument, but nothing gained. You just restated your equivocation.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

No, life being annihilated at death is not necessarily a Nihilist understanding. It is an assertion on your part.

OK....

So...

Er...

Do you acknowledge ANY CONNECTION AT ALL between Nihilism and Annihilation?

I mean, the simple logic is that annihilation is NECESSARILY nihilistic...

Just as impedimentation necessarily impedes...

Justification justifies...

[quoteIt is one of the traditional theist views that believes if life ends at death, and/or there is no God, therefore . . . It is Nihilism or Nihilist. This is not the definition of Nihilism.[/quote]

Then you are arguing against THEISM...

All I am arguing is that if you believe that death annihilates one's life, then you are a nihilist...

I mean, it is pretty much one of those...

QUID, ERAT, SPLAT!!

I was hoping maybe you would come back with a better crafted argument, but nothing gained. You just restated your equivocation.

Naaagghh -

Just the Law of Identity!

Arsenios

[Kia ora]

Didn't Camus become a Catholic before his death?

Doubt it.

Of course if life is meaningless why strive for honor and dignity? They are meaningless virtues in the end. And if believing in a "fiction" helps one get through life with a bit of happiness and peace - so what? No harm done...

Read Camus, particularly L'Homme révolté.

Well I don't see how it can't be - there is nothing past the grave, and eventually all life in this universe will be gone. There was another philosopher (his name escapes me) that said - "the only question left is why not suicide."

Albert Camus' The Myth of Sisyphus: "There is but one truly serious philosophical problem and that is suicide."

Didn't Camus finally commit suicide? So I guess life was not worth living in the end.

No. Camus died in a car accident in 1960.

If it ends in death, it is nihilistic...

Why does immortality not lead to nihilism? Why does mortality lead to nihilism?

[seer]

.

Of course if life is meaningless why strive for honor and dignity? They are meaningless virtues in the end. And if believing in a "fiction" helps one get through life with a bit of happiness and peace - so what? No harm done...

Read Camus, particularly L'Homme révolté.

No, don't just throw titles around - make the argument yourself. Respond to my point.

[Kia ora]

No, don't just throw titles around - make the argument yourself. Respond to my point.

You should still read it to understand what Camus is saying. Otherwise, how do you know I'm representing Camus correctly if you don't read it for yourself?

Briefly: Camus proposes we revolt against the absurd (what he calls our jarring realisation that there is no transcendant meaning to life). Why? Because the other option is death. He proposes life. But how? By creating our own meanings. It's a common theme among all existentialists. If you think life is worth living, then live it. Bravely and passionately but also with knowledge that it is fruitless. Ignoring the absurd or pretending that meaning exists is a pleasant fiction, which fair enough, is a common way to live. But an absurdist does not do this. An absurd life is reality based, and should be a constant struggle until the day we die.

[seer]

You should still read it to understand what Camus is saying. Otherwise, how do you know I'm representing Camus correctly if you don't read it for yourself?

Briefly: Camus proposes we revolt against the absurd (what he calls our jarring realisation that there is no transcendant meaning to life). Why? Because the other option is death. He proposes life. But how? By creating our own meanings. It's a common theme among all existentialists. If you think life is worth living, then live it. Bravely and passionately but also with knowledge that it is fruitless. Ignoring the absurd or pretending that meaning exists is a pleasant fiction, which fair enough, is a common way to live. But an absurdist does not do this. An absurd life is reality based, and should be a constant struggle until the day we die.

Ok, but I think my point still stands. If a "fiction" gets you through the night,so to speak, then I see no problem with it. Thanks for the explaination.

Of course as a Christian I do believe that ultimate truth does exist and that we are morally obligated to said truth.

[Tassman]

Ok, but I think my point still stands. If a "fiction" gets you through the night,so to speak, then I see no problem with it. Thanks for the explaination.

Of course as a Christian I do believe that ultimate truth does exist and that we are morally obligated to said truth.

You see no problem in living an escapist lie? Unlike you, I value personal integrity.

Further, if your life is geared for an eternity of heavenly bliss, you are less likely to value the ‘here and now’. This can result, at its extreme, in the suicide bombers of Islam, and at best a wasted life as you walk through the ‘dress-rehearsal’ for an imagined after-life for which there is no verified evidence.

[seer]

You see no problem in living an escapist lie? Unlike you, I value personal integrity.

I value personal integrity since I believe truth, honesty, corresponds to ultimate universal absolutes i.e. the character of God. But you are a moral relativist - perhaps next week you won't value personal integrity so much. And in the end what value was your integrity? When you are dust? When all humanity is dust?

[Tassman]

I value personal integrity since I believe truth, honesty, corresponds to ultimate universal absolutes i.e. the character of God.

Except that you have no knowledge of universal absolutes or moral absolutism. You only believe you have. You haven’t been able to give examples.

But you are a moral relativist - perhaps next week you won't value personal integrity so much.

Why not! Perhaps you won’t value your unsubstantiated beliefs in universal absolutes or moral absolutism next week. After all, you can’t be certain of them.

And in the end what value was your integrity? When you are dust? When all humanity is dust?

Integrity for its own sake! Don’t you see value in this?

Of what value are integrity and good deeds when done for reward? Dogs do as much, as Pavlov demonstrated in his research concerning the conditioned reflex.

[seer]

Except that you have no knowledge of universal absolutes or moral absolutism. You only believe you have. You haven’t been able to give examples.

Sure I have - the historical teachings of scripture and personal experience.

Integrity for its own sake! Don’t you see value in this?

No, in a godless universe I do not. Better a live dog than a dead lion. If Integrity undermines your survival then what good is it?

Of what value are integrity and good deeds when done for reward? Dogs do as much, as Pavlov demonstrated in his research concerning the conditioned reflex.

Reward? I'm saved by grace, not by works Homer.

[Tassman]

Sure I have - the historical teachings of scripture and personal experience.

But you have not been able to provide ANY examples of universal absolutes or moral absolutism from scripture. As for your personal experience, this is purely subjective. Your experience of god in your mind cannot be objectively verified to anyone else but you.

No, in a godless universe I do not. Better a live dog than a dead lion. If Integrity undermines your survival then what good is it?

Integrity is a natural part of the human condition, genetically encoded to enhance community cohesion, plus reinforced by our culture at our mother’s knee.

Reward? I'm saved by grace, not by works Homer.

Ah, so you are predestined to salvation. So you can rape and pillage with impunity.

[seer]

But you have not been able to provide ANY examples of universal absolutes or moral absolutism from scripture. As for your personal experience, this is purely subjective. Your experience of god in your mind cannot be objectively verified to anyone else but you.

Sure I have and here is another one - God is truth, there is no lie in Him. And why sould my experience of God need to be verified to anyone else to be true?

Integrity is a natural part of the human condition, genetically encoded to enhance community cohesion, plus reinforced by our culture at our mother’s knee.

So you don't have a choice but to practice integrity? But again, if integrity costs your life, or the life of your family - what good was it? If it doesn't help you and yours survive?

Ah, so you are predestined to salvation. So you can rape and pillage with impunity.

No I didn't say that. We are saved by grace through faith - not of works. And yes, one can do evil and still be saved - but does a genuine believer want to do evil? Generally no, but we are often morally weak... I know I am...

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Originally posted by George Blaisdell
If it ends in death, it is nihilistic...

Why does immortality not lead to nihilism?
Why does mortality lead to nihilism?

Well, if death is the annihilation of life...
And if mortality ends in death,
Then mortality leads inexorably unto its end, nihilism, via its an-nihil-ation...

And in like manner...
quid, erat, splat...
[eg - You can do the math...]
for immortality...

[+8-)>>>

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Originally posted by seer:
Didn't Camus become a Catholic before his death?

I heard that he did indeed convert on his deathbed, very close to the end...

The real absurdity, of course, which reared its ugly head as life was flowing away from him, is annihilation... And he fled from it at the precise time when his own personal ability to assign meaning to things was at its end...

Perhaps God visited him and gave him this grace on that bed of death...
And perhaps he simply succumbed to fear of death and tried to grasp for what he [wrongly] knew to be a fetid straw...

Death is the EXISTENTIAL problem for ALL EXISTENTIALISTS...

Because they understand existence to STOP at death...

Unfortunately for their theory, we are all immortal as humans, and for the good, unto good, and for the evil, unto evil... Suffering, after this life is over, the fruits of the life we have lived...

Arsenios

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by seer:
Didn't Camus become a Catholic before his death?

I heard that he did indeed convert on his deathbed, very close to the end...

This qualifies up there with alien sitings, no he did not convert to the Roman church on his deathbed, John Wayne yes, but not Camus. If you have a relaible source other than the National Enquirer please cite it.