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Thread: An Argument for the Catholic Papacy.

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    An Argument for the Catholic Papacy.

    An Argument is proposed below for the Divine Institution of the Catholic Papacy.

    The Papacy is defined in the Catechism as the Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church.

    881 The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the "rock" of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock.400 "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head."401 This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church's very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.

    882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403
    Argument proposed -

    The Old Testament documents the covenant life of Israel in the covenants made between God and Moses (Ex 19-34), then God and King David (2 Sam 7).

    The covenants were promised within the prophets to be superseded by a new covenant (Jer 31:31-34) made along with the divine action of a new Exodus (Isaiah 40-55) and the in-gathering of the nations to a restored Israel (Isaiah 11:11; 43:5, 6; Jer 31:8-10, et al).

    The Church is the restored Israel of God, the Church will manifest the perfections of the Davidic kingdom, for the NT fulfills the OT.

    As the Davidic kingdom was a kingdom of priests (Ex 19:6), with a prime minister with the power of the keys to bind and loose (Isaiah 22:21-22) over the Davidic kingdom, then the Church is the fulfillment of the Davidic kingdom.

    Jesus is the Messiah (Matt. 8:29; 14:33; 26:63-64; 27:43; Mark 1:1; 3:11; Luke 1:35; 4:41; 22:70 et al) who causes the new Exodus, new covenant and the restoration of Israel.

    As Jesus acts to fulfill the Davidic kingdom, He does so by causing the church to be a kingdom of priests (1 Peter 2:9), with a chief minister who is granted the keys of the kingdom (Matt 16:16-19).

    As the Davidic kingdom had successors of priests and kings, then so too the church also has succession from the apostles, who were both priests and kings (as testified by the witness of history).

    As Peter was alone given the keys of the kingdom to bind and loose (Matt 16:16-19), then St Peter as head of the apostles must also have had successors, who also have the power to bind and loose (evidence is also attained to the witness of church history concerning the successors to St Peter).

    Therefore from the nature of the gospel promised in the OT whereby the church is the fulfillment of Davidic Israel, and the witness of church history, the church has the Papacy instituted by Christ to fulfill the office of chief minister of the restored Israel of God.

    Therefore the Papacy is an institution from God.

    JM
    Last edited by JohnMartin; 03-14-2017 at 10:15 AM.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Sorry, but Jesus is the high priest, not the pope.

    Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them,[k] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

    Hebrews 3:1
    Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest.

    Hebrews 4:14
    Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.

    Hebrews 5:5 Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. 3 This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. 4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was.

    5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,

    “You are my Son;
    today I have become your Father.”[a]

    6 And he says in another place,

    “You are a priest forever,
    in the order of Melchizedek.”[b]

    7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

  3. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Sorry, but Jesus is the high priest, not the pope.
    Your statement is a red herring for the RCC does not teach that the Pope is the high priest. The RCC teaches in the catechism that Jesus is the high priest and ordained priests as His ministers.

    1546 Christ, high priest and unique mediator, has made of the Church "a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."20 The whole community of believers is, as such, priestly. The faithful exercise their baptismal priesthood through their participation, each according to his own vocation, in Christ's mission as priest, prophet, and king. Through the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation the faithful are "consecrated to be . . . a holy priesthood."21

    1547 The ministerial or hierarchical priesthood of bishops and priests, and the common priesthood of all the faithful participate, "each in its own proper way, in the one priesthood of Christ." While being "ordered one to another," they differ essentially.22 In what sense? While the common priesthood of the faithful is exercised by the unfolding of baptismal grace --a life of faith, hope, and charity, a life according to the Spirit--, the ministerial priesthood is at the service of the common priesthood. It is directed at the unfolding of the baptismal grace of all Christians. The ministerial priesthood is a means by which Christ unceasingly builds up and leads his Church. For this reason it is transmitted by its own sacrament, the sacrament of Holy Orders.
    The primacy of the Pope is in accord with that of the chief minister in the Davidic kingdom.

    JM
    Last edited by JohnMartin; 03-14-2017 at 12:34 PM.

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    tWebber Meh Gerbil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMartin View Post
    The Old Testament documents the covenant life of Israel in the covenants made between God and Moses (Ex 19-34), then God and King David (2 Sam 7).
    True.
    However, when dealing with the church Paul cites the older covenant between Abraham and God and cites that covenant as the foundation for the role of Jesus Christ and the church and NOT the covenant with Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMartin View Post
    The Church is the restored Israel of God, the Church will manifest the perfections of the Davidic kingdom, for the NT fulfills the OT.
    False.
    The old covenant with Israel was replaced with a new covenant which honored the original Abrahamic covenant.
    That is, we are not under the law as Israel was under the law, we are under grace as Abraham was under grace (pre-law).

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMartin View Post
    As the Davidic kingdom was a kingdom of priests (Ex 19:6), with a prime minister with the power of the keys to bind and loose (Isaiah 22:21-22) over the Davidic kingdom, then the Church is the fulfillment of the Davidic kingdom.
    False, as previously illustrated.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMartin View Post
    Jesus is the Messiah (Matt. 8:29; 14:33; 26:63-64; 27:43; Mark 1:1; 3:11; Luke 1:35; 4:41; 22:70 et al) who causes the new Exodus, new covenant and the restoration of Israel.
    False.
    The new Israel is in no sense a restoration of the old.
    It is a replacement - an entirely new creature that operates under an entirely new system.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMartin View Post
    As the Davidic kingdom had successors of priests and kings, then so too the church also has succession from the apostles, who were both priests and kings (as testified by the witness of history).
    False.
    Here you make the same logical error that you do throughout your posts: You pre-suppose what you hope to prove.
    If you were passingly familiar with the popes you'd recognize that some of them were in no sense a priest or king of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMartin View Post
    As Peter was alone given the keys of the kingdom to bind and loose (Matt 16:16-19), then St Peter as head of the apostles must also have had successors, who also have the power to bind and loose (evidence is also attained to the witness of church history concerning the successors to St Peter).
    False.
    There is nothing in the passage that indicates Peter would have successors.
    In fact, he wasn't even the head of the Apostles - he was openly challenged by Paul and corrected.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMartin View Post
    Therefore from the nature of the gospel promised in the OT whereby the church is the fulfillment of Davidic Israel, and the witness of church history, the church has the Papacy instituted by Christ to fulfill the office of chief minister of the restored Israel of God.
    False.
    The law and the old covenant was:
    1: Predated by the Abrahamic covenant which was based up on faith.
    2: Replaced by the new covenant in it's entirety (not restored, replaced) We are not under the law but Grace.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMartin View Post
    Therefore the Papacy is an institution from God..
    The Papacy is a political office with a long history of oppressing people for the sake of power, money, and fame.
    It is a disgrace and I look forward to the day this evil system is squashed by Jesus Christ.
    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

  6. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMartin View Post
    Your statement is a red herring for the RCC does not teach that the Pope is the high preist. The RCC teaches in the catechism that Jesus is the high priest and ordained priests as His ministers.



    The primacy of the Pope is in accord with that of the chief minister in the Davidic kingdom.

    JM
    well then your argument in the OP is wrong. You were arguing that the Pope was the leader of the church because it needed a high priest. If Jesus is the high priest then we don't need a pope. The bible also says we are all priests, so we don't need no priests either. We can each approach God through Jesus. Directly.

  8. Amen Bill the Cat amen'd this post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    well then your argument in the OP is wrong. You were arguing that the Pope was the leader of the church because it needed a high priest. If Jesus is the high priest then we don't need a pope. The bible also says we are all priests, so we don't need no priests either. We can each approach God through Jesus. Directly.
    High priest is first mentioned in your post and not in my OP.

    The bible also says we are all priests, so we don't need no priests either.
    The ministerial priesthood was instituted by Jesus at the last supper, whereby the apostles were instructed to perform the remembrance sacrifice of the Eucharist.

    JM

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMartin View Post
    The Old Testament documents the covenant life of Israel in the covenants made between God and Moses (Ex 19-34), then God and King David (2 Sam 7).
    True.
    However, when dealing with the church Paul cites the older covenant between Abraham and God and cites that covenant as the foundation for the role of Jesus Christ and the church and NOT the covenant with Israel.
    The gospel of Matthew is concerned with Jesus as the new Moses and the Church as the new Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMartin
    The Church is the restored Israel of God, the Church will manifest the perfections of the Davidic kingdom, for the NT fulfills the OT.

    False.

    The old covenant with Israel was replaced with a new covenant which honored the original Abrahamic covenant.
    That is, we are not under the law as Israel was under the law, we are under grace as Abraham was under grace (pre-law).
    The gospels contain much that show Jesus was the son of David, and the church is the new Israel. The NT fulfills the OT. So the Church fulfills Israel. St Pauls use of Abraham is only part of the gospel, completed by the gospels. The book of revelation portrays the church as the new Jerusalem. Hebrews portrays Christ as the high priest who enters the sanctuary and sits on the Davidic throne. Such language is consistent with the church as the new Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMartin View Post
    As the Davidic kingdom was a kingdom of priests (Ex 19:6), with a prime minister with the power of the keys to bind and loose (Isaiah 22:21-22) over the Davidic kingdom, then the Church is the fulfillment of the Davidic kingdom.
    False, as previously illustrated.
    Answered above. St Peter calls the church a kingdom of priests (1 Peter 2:9) which is a fulfillment of OT Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMartin View Post
    Jesus is the Messiah (Matt. 8:29; 14:33; 26:63-64; 27:43; Mark 1:1; 3:11; Luke 1:35; 4:41; 22:70 et al) who causes the new Exodus, new covenant and the restoration of Israel.

    False.
    The new Israel is in no sense a restoration of the old.
    It is a replacement - an entirely new creature that operates under an entirely new system.
    Christ came to fulfill the law and the prophets. The prophets promised a restoration of Israel, so Christ restored Israel as the church.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMartin View Post
    As the Davidic kingdom had successors of priests and kings, then so too the church also has succession from the apostles, who were both priests and kings (as testified by the witness of history).

    False.
    Here you make the same logical error that you do throughout your posts: You pre-suppose what you hope to prove.
    If you were passingly familiar with the popes you'd recognize that some of them were in no sense a priest or king of God.
    You presuppose there is not continuity by only making a truncated claim about what Paul says, whilst ignoring much of the NT and OT prophets. Christ fulfilled all the OT covenants, which includes the covenants with Israel trough Moses and David.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMartin View Post
    As Peter was alone given the keys of the kingdom to bind and loose (Matt 16:16-19), then St Peter as head of the apostles must also have had successors, who also have the power to bind and loose (evidence is also attained to the witness of church history concerning the successors to St Peter).
    False.
    There is nothing in the passage that indicates Peter would have successors.
    In fact, he wasn't even the head of the Apostles - he was openly challenged by Paul and corrected.
    A lack of succession associate with the keys is merely a Protestant invention to remove an obstacle to their own novel teachings about what Christ did and did not do. Keys in the OT inferred succession within the Davidic kingdom. similarly succession is also inferred in the new Davidic kingdom.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMartin View Post
    Therefore from the nature of the gospel promised in the OT whereby the church is the fulfillment of Davidic Israel, and the witness of church history, the church has the Papacy instituted by Christ to fulfill the office of chief minister of the restored Israel of God.

    False.
    The law and the old covenant was:
    1: Predated by the Abrahamic covenant which was based up on faith.
    2: Replaced by the new covenant in it's entirety (not restored, replaced) We are not under the law but Grace.
    Actually the covenant of faith according to St Paul was Abraham's covenant with Melchizedek in Gen 14. Abrs faith in Gen 15 assumes Abraham was in the covenant with Melch and had become a citizen of the kingdom of Salem under the rule of Melchizedek. Anyway all of the covenants and prophetic promises concerning the restoration of Israel are fulfilled by Christ in the NT.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMartin View Post
    Therefore the Papacy is an institution from God..

    The Papacy is a political office with a long history of oppressing people for the sake of power, money, and fame.
    It is a disgrace and I look forward to the day this evil system is squashed by Jesus Christ.
    This view of the Papacy is merely another Protestant invention. There is much witness to the primacy of the Papacy in church history. The Papacy is from Christ and is an institution towards which Protestants should turn to for salvation.

    JM

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    John Martin,

    Okay.

    -Meh Gerbil
    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
    John Martin,

    Okay.

    -Meh Gerbil
    Okay, Jesus fulfilled the entire OT which includes all of the OT covenants and promises.

    2 Corinthians 1:20 - For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.

    Included in the above truth is Christ's fulfillment of the covenant life of Israel initiated by God, through Moses and David.

    JM

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    Theologyweb's Official Grandfather Jedidiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMartin View Post
    As Peter was alone given the keys of the kingdom to bind and loose (Matt 16:16-19), then St Peter as head of the apostles must also have had successors, who also have the power to bind and loose (evidence is also attained to the witness of church history concerning the successors to St Peter).
    Matthew16: 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock (Jesus is the rock) I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

    The key to the Kingdom of heaven is given to each of us as we believe in Jesus Christ.

    Also of interest is the fact that the gates of hell are not the aggressor but the defender as they are unable to resist the power of the church.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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