What's up with our spirit?

[jo7241974]

I had the realization this morning about this phenomenon….. As our bodies age, our minds use our brains to increase in wisdom and knowledge; but we are acutely aware that in our minds, we are still young, vital, filled with passions and desires. It is our bodies that can no longer keep up. I would offer, that this is actually a manifestation of our spirits influencing our perception. Is this because our physical body has such a limited amount of time to exist? To our spirit, our physical existence is but a spec while existing in “time” as we now perceive it. Indeed, then, our spirits are unaffected by “time”, which is perhaps why they do not seem “old” to us no matter how much our bodies age.

This led to another thought. I would also offer that when we are filled with the exuberance of life, we may say things like, “I feel like I could just burst!” in an effort to express ourselves. I wonder if it is our spirit remembering what it is like to not be trapped inside of our physical shell. Does our brain come up with this exhiliration based only on imagination? Or, is this something our spirit is remembering which triggers what our brain tries to explain as imagination? If so, where did our spirit get the idea? Is it possible to merely conjure up this type of sensation if we have never actually experienced it before? We can identify love when we experience it. The same is true of our other "emotions". Where did this experience with exhiliration come from? How is it we can feel as though our spirits can reach beyond our physical self if we have never experienced an existence outside of our physical bodies?

It would make sense that our spirit is actually remembering something. Some believe that when Paul taught us our spirit is eternal, they think he meant that they “become” eternal from the point at which they enter eternity once we have been resurrected. However, that is not what the word “eternal” means…..either you are eternal, or you are not. Indeed, what would entering eternity even look like? Can something exist for only the “remainder” of eternity? Isn’t eternity without beginning or end?

[FreezBee]

It would make sense that our spirit is actually remembering something. Some believe that when Paul taught us our spirit is eternal, they think he meant that they “become” eternal from the point at which they enter eternity once we have been resurrected. However, that is not what the word “eternal” means…..either you are eternal, or you are not. Indeed, what would entering eternity even look like? Can something exist for only the “remainder” of eternity? Isn’t eternity without beginning or end?

Jo,

I am not sure that I can quite follow you here. Could you say, where Paul teaches that our spirit is eternal?

That the body is the prison of the spirit is, I would say, a more gnostic idea than I think Paul would have agreed with. But I may certainly be wrong.


- FreezBee

[jo7241974]

Jo,

I am not sure that I can quite follow you here. Could you say, where Paul teaches that our spirit is eternal?

That the body is the prison of the spirit is, I would say, a more gnostic idea than I think Paul would have agreed with. But I may certainly be wrong.


- FreezBee

Hiya!!!

This is what I was referring to:

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

God bless,

jo

[Vivian]

Hiya!!!

This is what I was referring to:

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

God bless,

jo

Dearest Jo -

You might not realize, but you have keyed into a deep mystery! We being clothed while in this world by our Spirit!

Right now our Spirit lives within us, deep within us, kind of asleep. When this Spirit is born into this world, born into and through our beings into (we thus being born of Spirit) this world, it then grows and develops into maturity, ultimately being our clothing - our clothing of Light, as Jesus appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration. And when we are clothed in our eternal bodies, then we too will have eternal life. If our Eternal Spirits are not born again, and if they are not brought to maturity, we will not be clothed in them and thus eventually, we will return to dust and our Spirit to the Father who gave them. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

And what does this have to do with being born of Christ, and being clothed in Christ?




Shalom!

Viv

[NormATive]

Right now our Spirit lives within us, deep within us, kind of asleep.

Viv

This is what Freud called the "Id." I think, perhaps, over time, mystics and theosophists have tapped into this understanding and labled it "spirit."

Whatever one calls it, I think it's been rather succinctly described in this thread so far.

I know that there are all kinds of things going on inside of our heads that we have no way of grasping in a knowing kind of way.

During the 70s I experimented with LSD and inadvertently tapped into some of that "id / spirit" stuff. I most definitely experienced something beyond what we perceive to be "normal" in our day to day lives.

NORM

[OtherCheek]

I had the realization this morning about this phenomenon….. As our bodies age, our minds use our brains to increase in wisdom and knowledge; but we are acutely aware that in our minds, we are still young, vital, filled with passions and desires. It is our bodies that can no longer keep up. I would offer, that this is actually a manifestation of our spirits influencing our perception. Is this because our physical body has such a limited amount of time to exist? To our spirit, our physical existence is but a spec while existing in “time” as we now perceive it. Indeed, then, our spirits are unaffected by “time”, which is perhaps why they do not seem “old” to us no matter how much our bodies age.

This led to another thought. I would also offer that when we are filled with the exuberance of life, we may say things like, “I feel like I could just burst!” in an effort to express ourselves. I wonder if it is our spirit remembering what it is like to not be trapped inside of our physical shell. Does our brain come up with this exhiliration based only on imagination? Or, is this something our spirit is remembering which triggers what our brain tries to explain as imagination? If so, where did our spirit get the idea? Is it possible to merely conjure up this type of sensation if we have never actually experienced it before? We can identify love when we experience it. The same is true of our other "emotions". Where did this experience with exhiliration come from? How is it we can feel as though our spirits can reach beyond our physical self if we have never experienced an existence outside of our physical bodies?

It would make sense that our spirit is actually remembering something. Some believe that when Paul taught us our spirit is eternal, they think he meant that they “become” eternal from the point at which they enter eternity once we have been resurrected. However, that is not what the word “eternal” means…..either you are eternal, or you are not. Indeed, what would entering eternity even look like? Can something exist for only the “remainder” of eternity? Isn’t eternity without beginning or end?

Interesting and very insightful thoughts, jo. The mind does not experience age in the way the body does, it is true. And when the mind becomes handicapped, surely it is not because the mind has aged, but it is because the body has aged. Imagine, glorified, resurrected bodies that do not age.

[franktalk]

When we are born our spirit has little connection to our body. It learns to rule over the free will at some point but before that the body pretty much reacts to the world. The spirit is still in the body but the flesh has not mixed with the spirit. This may be why Christ said we are to be like the children. From this view the spirit is independent which is our goal in life. Then as we grow our spirit learns to take charge, but of course the spirit sees the world through the flesh and dies to the flesh. Only later through election can the spirit be reborn separate from the flesh. The new man is the spiritual man. One that knows the flesh and knows the spirit. But we have additional things which come along with us. We have a universal moral code imprinted on us. It tells us what is right and what is wrong. But a weak spirit can embrace the flesh and lose the universal moral code. In fact some can become amoral. Unknown to us as children there are others spirits on the earth, some good and some evil. Most will never recognize this fact. They see the world react and change as if there was no outside influence. But a strong spirit knows of God and also knows what is not of God. It is our universal moral code that allows us to know which is which. This is but step one. Next we must lose ourself and surrender to the good in the spirit world. This would be the indwelling of the Holy Ghost and Christ spirit. Step three is to cast off the flesh as a controlling influence on us, to seek out the next world and do the work of God while we remain here, waiting for our day in which we move to our permanent home.

Now I have said that spirits learn but not all spirits learn the same thing. Equal environments make different results. This means that spirits are not equal which leads to differences the moment they enter the body. This has large implications. Either God creates the spirits unequal and we are doomed to predestination and no free will, or the spirits are not created but chosen. In this case the spirit will have free will and choices are the responsibility of the spirit.

Just some thoughts.

Frank

[OtherCheek]

When we are born our spirit has little connection to our body. It learns to rule over the free will at some point but before that the body pretty much reacts to the world. The spirit is still in the body but the flesh has not mixed with the spirit. This may be why Christ said we are to be like the children. From this view the spirit is independent which is our goal in life. Then as we grow our spirit learns to take charge, but of course the spirit sees the world through the flesh and dies to the flesh. Only later through election can the spirit be reborn separate from the flesh. The new man is the spiritual man. One that knows the flesh and knows the spirit. But we have additional things which come along with us. We have a universal moral code imprinted on us. It tells us what is right and what is wrong. But a weak spirit can embrace the flesh and lose the universal moral code. In fact some can become amoral. Unknown to us as children there are others spirits on the earth, some good and some evil. Most will never recognize this fact. They see the world react and change as if there was no outside influence. But a strong spirit knows of God and also knows what is not of God. It is our universal moral code that allows us to know which is which. This is but step one. Next we must lose ourself and surrender to the good in the spirit world. This would be the indwelling of the Holy Ghost and Christ spirit. Step three is to cast off the flesh as a controlling influence on us, to seek out the next world and do the work of God while we remain here, waiting for our day in which we move to our permanent home.

Now I have said that spirits learn but not all spirits learn the same thing. Equal environments make different results. This means that spirits are not equal which leads to differences the moment they enter the body. This has large implications. Either God creates the spirits unequal and we are doomed to predestination and no free will, or the spirits are not created but chosen. In this case the spirit will have free will and choices are the responsibility of the spirit.

Just some thoughts.

Frank

I like what you wrote here, Frank.

From my perspective, the type of resurrection a person obtains depends in large part on whether that person has learned in mortality to bring the flesh into subjection to the will of the spirit (and/or the Holy Spirit), instead of yielding himself to the will of the flesh.

Spirit and body inseparably connected, receive fulness of joy, and that is our destiny in receiving a glorious resurrection.

[jo7241974]

Now I have said that spirits learn but not all spirits learn the same thing. Equal environments make different results. This means that spirits are not equal which leads to differences the moment they enter the body. This has large implications. Either God creates the spirits unequal and we are doomed to predestination and no free will, or the spirits are not created but chosen. In this case the spirit will have free will and choices are the responsibility of the spirit.

Just some thoughts.

Frank

Hi Frank,

I bolded a part of your response which points to a belief the LDS Church holds. We believe that Father organized our co-existing intelligences into what is now our spirit. Thus, we call Father the father of our spirits. This would seem to help explain why we are all so different. I find it diffiuclt to think that God would make us unequal with respect to personality strengths, intelligence, desire to do good, egos, etc. If our intelligences already contained these traits, then God did NOT create them. They have always inherrantly been who we are. Our physical bodies are different; some are healthier, or stronger, different sizes, etc. But our physical bodies ARE created. It is easy for me to imagine that because He already knew us spiritually, God would match which created physical body we get in accordance with what He thinks is best for us in order for us to learn what we need to learn while we are in our physical bodies. Indeed, this could explain which of His spirit children would be fore-ordained as Prophets, etc. This could also explain how He would be able to give us different physical gifts and talents by basing them on the strengths and weaknesses of who we already were. He could even decide WHEN we should come to earth, etc. This would give all of us the best chance of being able to return to Him while we participate in the fulfillment of prophesy. Indeed, this would give us the opportunity of exercising our own free will in making choices.

In fact, this would explain why we are taught that He knew us before we were born on earth. He does not say we were created before we were born; but that He knew us!

Thank you for sharing.

God bless,

jo

[Catholicity]

interesting thought... I am not sure I'll have to chew on it and do some research

[Vivian]

This is what Freud called the "Id." I think, perhaps, over time, mystics and theosophists have tapped into this understanding and labled it "spirit."

Whatever one calls it, I think it's been rather succinctly described in this thread so far.

I know that there are all kinds of things going on inside of our heads that we have no way of grasping in a knowing kind of way.

During the 70s I experimented with LSD and inadvertently tapped into some of that "id / spirit" stuff. I most definitely experienced something beyond what we perceive to be "normal" in our day to day lives.

NORM

Hi Norm!

Id according to Freud:

The id comprises the unorganised part of the personality structure that contains the basic drives. The id acts as according to the "pleasure principle", seeking to avoid pain or unpleasure aroused by increases in instinctual tension.
The id is unconscious by definition.

In the model that I am offering, the Id would be equated to the fallen soul, or the nefesh behamit.

From the perspective of God, this would be the outer part of us which must submit to Christ to be purified. It is the part of us that will be clothed by our Eternal Spirit, becoming the temple of this Eternal Spirit, upon purification.

The Spirit is deep within the unconscious, and is actually, biblically speaking, asleep, which is why we are spiritually dead.

Because this part is unconscious or unaware, why we are blind, or without eyes that see and ears that hear - why we are completely unaware of the spiritual realms. We are unable to perceive the infinite reality within us.

See, from our perspective looking out we think we are awake, but from God's perspective we are asleep because we are unconscious to these inner worlds - completely in darkness or unaware of the Infinite Kingdom.

Shalom!

Viv

[jo7241974]

interesting thought... I am not sure I'll have to chew on it and do some research

It is quite a lot to try to get your head around. Let me know if you run into any road blocks. (Preferably before you submit my name for the next opening at the funny farm.....)

God bless,

jo

[jo7241974]

See, from our perspective looking out we think we are awake, but from God's perspective we are asleep because we are unconscious to these inner worlds - completely in darkness or unaware of the Infinite Kingdom.

Shalom!

Viv

Hi Viv,

This seems to describe the veil of forgetfulness that divides the physical from the spiritual. Once in awhile I think there are some unconscious stirrings which reach our consciouness which we cannot explain. These moments find us looking at the world with eyes that deem there is more to our existence then what we are experiencing. I've tried expressing this longing in poetry; but it is impossible. I now simply describe it as feeling homesick even though I am already home.

God bless,

jo

[jo7241974]

This is what Freud called the "Id." I think, perhaps, over time, mystics and theosophists have tapped into this understanding and labled it "spirit."

Whatever one calls it, I think it's been rather succinctly described in this thread so far.

I know that there are all kinds of things going on inside of our heads that we have no way of grasping in a knowing kind of way.

During the 70s I experimented with LSD and inadvertently tapped into some of that "id / spirit" stuff. I most definitely experienced something beyond what we perceive to be "normal" in our day to day lives.

NORM

Hi Norm!

I have heard that in some societies their holy men do use drugs to reach spiritual realms for enlightenment. It seems plausible since these individuals describe the same details on their journey (trip). I don't think this is coincidence. The drugs are able to stimulate (break open) whatever that barrier (or veil of forgetfulness) which separates our physical being from the spiritual world around us. I recently watched a special on a group of believers who go on a trek with their shaman (I know I don't have the correct terminology) somewhere in South America which leads them to some very high altitude. They participate in a physical cleansing using prayer, a drug (sorry, I can't remember which one), and then bathe in a frigid lake. This is then a spiritual event which also cures their physical bodies of illness and disease. It is a very sacred ritual that has been passed on for centuries.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

God bless,

jo

[Vivian]

Hi Viv,

This seems to describe the veil of forgetfulness that divides the physical from the spiritual. Once in awhile I think there are some unconscious stirrings which reach our consciouness which we cannot explain. These moments find us looking at the world with eyes that deem there is more to our existence then what we are experiencing. I've tried expressing this longing in poetry; but it is impossible. I now simply describe it as feeling homesick even though I am already home.

God bless,

jo

Indeed Jo. What we experience as ourselves is only the tip of the ice berg. But there are souls who break through the veils (there are three known veils) and are able to experience themselves as whole and complete beings.

This 'separation from ourselves' is actually the source of our misery, the cause of our sin.

Purification or being made whole is the process of breaking through these veils so that we might know ourselves as complete or perfect beings, so that we might know the Kingdom, and ultimately so that we might know God.

And we all experience, urgings, sensings, feelings, that have risen up out of these deeper places within ourselves. Longings, knowings, that actually compel us through life, towards salvation, or the bringing down of the veils so that we might know full unity.

I would love to hear your poetry sometime.

Shalom!

Viv