Rick Warren Tells Passive Christians to Find Another Church

[Obsidian]

Not only that, but there are actually pastors who do provide useful and new insights into scripture. They just aren't very common nowadays, at least in my experience. I think it's because a lot of them have stopped even trying to teach in-depth.

You know, I actually don't go to churches for sermons anymore. The centrality of preaching is downright right paradigmatic for evangelicalism. But its nice to go to churches for communal prayer, confession, and communion instead.

Hebrews 5-6

11We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

I'm not a fan of Rick Warren, but I'm wondering what the problem is. I do think we have too many passive Christians in the church today who come and just fill a pew thinking they've done their service instead of living active lives throughout the week in devotion to God.

What's the problem with encouraging the church to get active?

[Bill the Cat]

It's the HOW that gives me heartburn. The "Decade of Destiny" nonsense. He simply MUST package everything he does to market it.

[Obsidian]

What's the problem with encouraging the church to get active?

If a person comes to church and learns to live a life of active devotion to God, then the world as a whole will be better off, and God will bless that follower in the world to come (and probably in this world, too). But even if the person does not make the outside world better off, at least he himself will be better off simply by remaining in the church. Therefore, encouraging people to become active by threatening to kick them out violates the following directive of scripture.

John 21:15

When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?"
"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."

Anyway, you don't feed a sheep by threatening to kick it out of the flock. You feed it by giving it substantive FOOD.

There are a few other passages in scripture that refer to kicking people out of church, but only for blatant sins. A sin is generally a bad deed rather than the absence of a good deed. Hence, I do not agree with kicking people out simply because they're mediocre Christians and aren't evangelizing enough or volunteering enough or whatever. For the same reason, I don't agree with telling mediocre Christians to get lost.

[Jin-Roh]

Hebrews 5-6

11We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

Ephesians 2:11-12

There remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "uncircumcision" byt the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands -remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

[wonbyone]

I know what you mean as well. But novelty is overrated. We are as forgetful as the Israelites, which is why both the OT and the NT frequently describe their purpose as "reminding."

The commentaries I read are far more in depth than any sermon.

[Jin-Roh]

The commentaries I read are far more in depth than any sermon.

I think a lot of Christians feel that way. I think part of the problem is that a sermon, by virtue of its context, can never really be as indepth as a commentary or a book or the NT or works of Theology.

The minister is supposed to be a teacher. However, his "students" (the congregation) are all at varying levels of knowledge. The minister must preach to the lowest common denominator at all times. Something might be new to a someone who is not a Christian, but not to older Christians.

The sad consequence is we get the "mile-wide, inch deep" problem.

I stopped trying to "learn" from sermons years ago. I have books. Sure, every once in awhile I'll listen to a sermon and learning something "outside of my box" so to speak, but that is so incredibly rare that I don't feel bad in not paying attention anymore.

[Obsidian]

I think part of the problem is that a sermon, by virtue of its context, can never really be as indepth as a commentary or a book or the NT or works of Theology.

Don't agree

The minister must preach to the lowest common denominator at all times.

Don't agree. That's just the common misconception that is leading to the problem described above.

[Zguy28]

Maybe he should just continue to read and teach from 1 Corinthians every Sunday. Basically Paul says the same things, except the "get out" part.

[Manwë Súlimo]

Forget passive churchgoers, I wish passive pastors would find another church. I don't think I've learned anything new in a sermon in......God knows how long.

Hey, did you know Jesus died on the cross? Did you know that Jonah got eaten by a whale? So, what about those three kings, eh? It's all everything I've learned in Sunday School eons ago, just dressed up in new words and no felt board...

[Jnthn]

I think one of the critical actions of a church with 20000 members should be to split in to 100-200 smaller churches that are local, embedded into their local communities and missional in focus.

That way they'd see who are the pew fillers or not. It's far too easy to be anonymous in a stadium.

J

[RonC]

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20100524/rick-warren-tells-passive-fake-christians-to-find-another-church/index.html

Pastor Rick Warren has a message for the some 20,000 people who attend Saddleback Church: If you want to remain a passive Christian, find another church.

During his weekend sermon, Warren laid out a plan for Saddleback's next "Decade of Destiny" in which he's anticipating exponential growth. And the plan has no room for fake Christians, he indicated.

Aligning Saddleback with the DNA of the original church – which grew from 120 believers to dominating the Roman Empire within 300 years – Warren directed the congregation to adopt and strengthen eight characteristics of real Christianity as found in the book of Acts.

They include: supernatural power through prayer, using everybody's language and every communication channel for mission, mobilizing everybody from kids to seniors, life-changing truth, loving support or fellowship, joyful worship, generous sacrifices and exponential growth.

"Real Christianity uses everyone's gifts," said Warren, author of The Purpose Driven Life, as he rejected passive and consumer Christians.

© source where applicable

The rest of the article is at the web site in the citation.

I actually have listened to and studied Rick Warren over the years… especially since he gotten so popular. The problem with Mr. Warren’s teachings (as far as the Gospels go) is that they are fundamentally un-Christian. I do not take issue with his teachings since he is free to teach what he pleases. I take issue with his cloaking them in the cloth of the words and teachings of Jesus.

Mr. Warren is a student of Peter Drucker… someone all should read about. The problem with Mr. Drucker’s approach (which Warren has adopted) is that it is self-centered, not Christ-centered. In his writings Drucker poses certain questions a leader need ask himself. The first is: “What do I want to do?” The second is “What do I hope to achieve?” Note the emphasis on “I”.

Mr. Warren’s teachings are ones which are focus on a political/social agenda, not on individual salvation. Individual salvation is the message of Jesus in the Gospels. Jesus clearly does not see government as having anything to do with salvation. All the disputes in Christianity regarding paths to salvation center on individual faith and individual works, not collective works and collective faith. Jesus’ commandment is that we “love one another”, not that we influence legislation. Jesus’ message is that we not worry about what we eat or what we wear, that we seek first the kingdom, that the kingdom is within each of us, that we not seek earthly reward but rather heavenly reward, not that we seek political power and influence.

Isn’t it interesting that Mr. Warren does not align himself with the words and teachings of Jesus, but rather, he aligns himself with the political success of the Church in a specific time and place? He fails to understand that the success of the early Church sprouted from faith. It was a byproduct of faith, just as Jesus taught: “Seek first the Kingdom and all else will follow”. Mr. Warren has it completely backwards. He believes in seeking wordly success thinking that from this the Kingdom will follow. That is not what Jesus taught. Mr. Warren should revisit the words and teachings of Jesus before claiming he has any understanding of the early Church Fathers many of whom were martyred for their faith, not riding in corporate Chariots.

[Jin-Roh]

Mr. Warren is a student of Peter Drucker… someone all should read about. The problem with Mr. Drucker’s approach (which Warren has adopted) is that it is self-centered, not Christ-centered. In his writings Drucker poses certain questions a leader need ask himself. The first is: “What do I want to do?” The second is “What do I hope to achieve?” Note the emphasis on “I”.

Who is Peter Drucker?

Mr. Warren’s teachings are ones which are focus on a political/social agenda, not on individual salvation.

There is very much a poltical/social agenda to the Gospel. What is the "Kingdom of God" if not a political designation? Certianly, though it is different than the water of democratic political activism that Warren seems to swim in.

Individual salvation is the message of Jesus in the Gospels.

How is your "I" different that Rick Warren's "I"?

Isn’t it interesting that Mr. Warren does not align himself with the words and teachings of Jesus, but rather, he aligns himself with the political success of the Church in a specific time and place? He fails to understand that the success of the early Church sprouted from faith. It was a byproduct of faith, just as Jesus taught: “Seek first the Kingdom and all else will follow”. Mr. Warren has it completely backwards. He believes in seeking wordly success thinking that from this the Kingdom will follow. That is not what Jesus taught. Mr. Warren should revisit the words and teachings of Jesus before claiming he has any understanding of the early Church Fathers many of whom were martyred for their faith, not riding in corporate Chariots.

It is entirely possible that Warren is yet-another stooge for the Republican party who is advertising the American civic religion. I am actually really distrustful of mega-churches and mega-pastors.

[RonC]

Who is Peter Drucker?

He was a business management writer and consultant. He expanded on Murray Bookchin's social ecology concepts... and though many try to portray him as a Renaissance man, his thought actually seems more grounded in Saint-Simon. From what I understand, Mr. Warren and Mr. Drucker met on a regular basis at least once a year.

There is very much a poltical/social agenda to the Gospel. What is the "Kingdom of God" if not a political designation?

Actually, The Kingdom of God" is a spiritual designation... after all, Jesus teaches that it is within everyone... including the Pharisees!

Certianly, though it is different than the water of democratic political activism that Warren seems to swim in.

To follow through on your water analogy... Just because The Kingdom can and does have a profound effect on all aspects of existence, including the governmental and political does not render its essence to be "political/social"... Just as water can and does have a profound effect on all of nature including the fact that it makes up 70% of the human body does not render its essence to be a component of the human body.

How is your "I" different that Rick Warren's "I"?

I am unclear as to exactly what you mean... but the questions Drucker raises are with regard to leadership... how we want to influence people to act and behave...

Warren's claim is that Christianity demands that Christians act in unison as a community to influence governments to to impose regulations on all peoples... rewarding those who follow those regulations and punishing those who do not. In addition he has the chutzpah to don the robe of Moses and use Genesis as the foundation for such brilliant metaphysical teachings as "climate change is a spiritual issue"... while almost at the same time sending out letters saying he needs $900,000... Maybe he should revisit Thomas a Kempis (if he ever visited him at all!)...

Do you recall Jesus after the Sermon on the Mount asking for donations so he could buy loaves and fishes for the Apostles or so he could influence the Pharisees? And of course you remember Jesus saying something to the effect of , "OK, you love your God... OK. you love your neighbor... now go out, collect all the money you can and lobby for the social and political change you want"... Jesus didn't really say, "sell all your earthly possessions, give the money to the poor and come follow me..." Mr. Warren could not acknowledge that Jesus might be teaching him as well as all those to whom he is a self-appointed teacher.

It is the duty of a Christian to love... and truth and love are inseparable. We show Mr. Warren our love but mirroring back to him the words and teachings of Jesus... just as we show our love of anyone else by mirroring back to them the words and teachings of Jesus.

It is entirely possible that Warren is yet-another stooge for the Republican party who is advertising the American civic religion. I am actually really distrustful of mega-churches and mega-pastors.

Actually, if he is a stooge, it is for the Democratic Party. He is an adviser to the President... but I don't care who he advises or who he supports or votes for... I only care that he is misrepresenting the words and teachings of Jesus... and I believe that all Christians need lovingly let him know his error.

[Zguy28]

I actually have listened to and studied Rick Warren over the years… especially since he gotten so popular. The problem with Mr. Warren’s teachings (as far as the Gospels go) is that they are fundamentally un-Christian. I do not take issue with his teachings since he is free to teach what he pleases. I take issue with his cloaking them in the cloth of the words and teachings of Jesus.

Mr. Warren is a student of Peter Drucker… someone all should read about. The problem with Mr. Drucker’s approach (which Warren has adopted) is that it is self-centered, not Christ-centered. In his writings Drucker poses certain questions a leader need ask himself. The first is: “What do I want to do?” The second is “What do I hope to achieve?” Note the emphasis on “I”.

Mr. Warren’s teachings are ones which are focus on a political/social agenda, not on individual salvation. Individual salvation is the message of Jesus in the Gospels. Jesus clearly does not see government as having anything to do with salvation. All the disputes in Christianity regarding paths to salvation center on individual faith and individual works, not collective works and collective faith. Jesus’ commandment is that we “love one another”, not that we influence legislation. Jesus’ message is that we not worry about what we eat or what we wear, that we seek first the kingdom, that the kingdom is within each of us, that we not seek earthly reward but rather heavenly reward, not that we seek political power and influence.

Isn’t it interesting that Mr. Warren does not align himself with the words and teachings of Jesus, but rather, he aligns himself with the political success of the Church in a specific time and place? He fails to understand that the success of the early Church sprouted from faith. It was a byproduct of faith, just as Jesus taught: “Seek first the Kingdom and all else will follow”. Mr. Warren has it completely backwards. He believes in seeking wordly success thinking that from this the Kingdom will follow. That is not what Jesus taught. Mr. Warren should revisit the words and teachings of Jesus before claiming he has any understanding of the early Church Fathers many of whom were martyred for their faith, not riding in corporate Chariots.

Don't know anything about this Drucker fella, but interestingly enough, the first sentence of the book Purpose Driven Life reads, "It's not about you."