Rick Warren Tells Passive Christians to Find Another Church

[Obsidian]

Sure [teaching is] important. But it is important enough to take up 2/3rds the service time, and often to the exclusion (or at least marginalization) of the following?
1. communal prayer.
2. Confession/absolution of sins
3. The Lord's supper
4. Public reading of scripture.
5. Any of the other things mentioned in the New Testament.

I'm perfectly fine with letting communal prayer and "confession...of sins" take up less than one third of the church service. I do agree the Lord's supper should be a bigger part of church life, but only if we're actually going to hold it as a meal like it was intended. As far as the public reading of scripture, that usually happens in between songs, in some sense during the songs, and especially during the sermon, so your critique there doesn't make any sense -- unless the pastor isn't citing any scripture in his sermons, which probably is a problem.

[aegis]

I think that there are different FORMS of worship service for different congregations and needs.

Some worship service might be more focused on singing and some more focused on prayer, or some more focused on WORD.

However, the audience of worship service is God and the participants are the congregation and the purpose is get everyone to the presence of God's throne and enjoy God's presence, celebrate God's blessings and bath in God's glory.

According to traditional reform tradition, there should be Holy Spirit and Word( scripture) in worship. However, I think different circumstances might demand differently. Some charismatic service might be more prayer and singspiration but there should be some form of scripture as guideline and as God's way of communicating to the congregation.

The present postmodern approach appreciates candles and incense and images and icons and chanting and this merges more with Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches and traditions.

Regarding Rick Warren's comment, my point is that sometimes for certain congregations, there need to be a wake up call, such as Jesus' comment about calculating the cost of discipleship and if one could not make the call, better quit than deceiving oneself. I think this is a judgment call on when and where to press this point. It may be a fair comment to Yuppy middle class Californians at Saddleback church but not suitable for persecution laden young christians in china or muslim nations

regards

aegis

[Thoughtful Monk]

No, TM.. absolutely not... it's all about dialogue, exchange... you ask good questions. you make me think. That's GOOD

You're being ... um.. THOUGHTFUL, Monk!

Thanks for the encouragement. Trying to relate my experience:

3 You [the Lord] asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?'
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

4 "You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.'
5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you. 6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes."
- Job 42:3-6 (NIV)

I do not claim that I had anywhere near the intensity of Job's experience. Yet I did have something happen where I was more conscious of God's presence and the humility that comes with that moment. No matter how much insight I have, in the presence of God, I am shallow.

I agree that it is good dialogue. Scripture would be lacking without the dialog of Job. At the end though, God comes and reminds (among other things) that He is beyond our understanding and the things of God are beyond our understanding. We only understand in part here on earth (1 Corinthians 13:12). Sometimes God just comes along to tell us to shut up and try to listen to His words.

I definitely appreciated and thank you for the dialog. On the topic of worship though, God has told me for the moment to shut up and so I shall.

Blessings.

[Jin-Roh]

I'm perfectly fine with letting communal prayer and "confession...of sins" take up less than one third of the church service.

<Sarcasm>

Wow! So people in some churches never sin?

This is a fair warning to those sarcastically impaired the preceding text was written in jest.

In all seriousness, I never said that confession of sin needed to take up a third.

I do agree the Lord's supper should be a bigger part of church life, but only if we're actually going to hold it as a meal like it was intended. As far as the public reading of scripture, that usually happens in between songs, in some sense during the songs, and especially during the sermon, so your critique there doesn't make any sense -- unless the pastor isn't citing any scripture in his sermons, which probably is a problem.

Even the best, and most thoroughly exegetical sermon, is still not the same as a public reading of scripture. There is a since in which a parable of Jesus, a psalm, a passage from the Old Testament etc are unmediated when recited. The Psalms, especially, seem far more conducive to a public recitation than a subject of a sermon.

Besides, scripture is often cited so sloopily that it often is reducible to verse-spamming during a sermon. If had a nickel for every time I heard a verse out of context...

[Cow Poke]

[sarcasm]Besides, scripture is often cited so sloopily that it often is reducible to verse-spamming during a sermon. If had a nickel for every time I heard a verse out of context...

I can't speak for all preachers, but my preaching style has always been more exegesis than topical preaching. I like to "preach through" a passage... in the process, of course, the passage is read, and explained, and a conclusion or "life application" is made.

I rarely have somebody "read scripture" as part of the service.

It makes it much more of a "thus sayeth the Lord" message, because.. well.. it is!

[Sparko]

Continuing to be kind, UM () I would not advocate live-style evangelism "alone", but in combination with the "doing" and "going"... consistent walk and talk.

Your point about not having met but maybe 4 lifestyle worshipers, as you put it, perhaps is an indictment against the Church, and maybe we should all do more of that?

Seriously... I don't see the great commission so much as "go into the world", but "AS you go, go preaching, etc"....
Living a life consistent with what we teach and preach.

I agree. I am not so great about evangelizing (at least not in person, here on TWEB I am raring to go!)

But I try to live a Christian life and principles (try being the active word!), and will gladly tell people about God and Jesus and what they have done for me. And if they want to know more, I will gladly share with them. I think I also need to work on volunteering more. I used to volunteer at a church medical/food drive thing but I haven't done that in years. Getting slack, I know.

I do help out with my sunday school class, recording and podcasting the class and putting it on iTunes. We have picked up several people all across the country who have found it and written in.

I think "online evangelizing" like many here who have Christian blogs, and even being here on Theologyweb, defending the faith, is a great way to serve the Lord. Cyberspace is an often overlooked part of the world and evangelizing and doing apologetics here is one way we can be doers of the word, especially since many of us are pretty shy about that kind of stuff in real life.

[Oingo]

Unless a member is promoting false doctrine or committing crimes or tortious acts within the church, or otherwise just blatantly sinning, I don't think it's really appropriate to tell them to leave. The better action would be to inspire them to improve. I think a lot of these weak modern pastors just get frustrated by their congregations after the congregations fail to grow as a result of the pastors' watered-down preaching. If the preachers would become more passionate and more substantive in their sermons and in other areas of leadership, people would tend to irrestibly change just by sitting in the church listening. Change the world starting with the man in the mirror, Rick!

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[justsumguy]

Aligning Saddleback with the DNA of the original church – which grew from 120 believers to dominating the Roman Empire within 300 years – Warren directed the congregation to adopt and strengthen eight characteristics of real Christianity as found in the book of Acts.

Uhhhh...the real dominating didn't start until after 300AD.
Any person who did not recognize the Roman Catholic Church as THE BLAMELESS CHURCH of God, was either cut-off from society by not being able to buy or sell, made to pick up and leave, jailed, tortured or killed. This included every "type" Christian other than those who bowed to the CHURCH along with the "pagans".

It sounds like Warren needs to be directed to a few World History classes. Western History was written by said CHURCH but hey...
some of the real stuff sneaks through and they weren't able to burn everything that was written (although they gave it a pretty good try).

[Zero Tolerance]

I'm personally not a fan of Warren. I didn't finish The Purpose Driven Life because I found it to be a banal, oversimplification of The Bible. It was like The Secret except that it retained the words "God" and "Jesus Christ."

Now don't get me wrong. The man has influenced far more people in the name of Christ than I could in ten lifetimes. For that, I applaud him.

But the things that Warren is concerned about is actually plaguing the church today. I'm not going to say to him, "you made your bed so lie in it," but rather I'm glad that he too sees that we are allowing ourselves to be trampled upon by the World.

Granted, I personally am not gifted with evangelism. I'm gifted with discernment and faith, however, so if someone asks me tough questions concerning topics such as divorce, abortion, homosexuality, which we've allowed cultural relativism to corrupt the Truth that is in the Word, I can tell them that Truth in love but be called a bigot in the process, of course.

Apparently, one can only be a hypocrite or a bigot in modern-day Christianity if the world is the judge.

So for me, becoming more "active" is to call the kettle black. Lately, I have found myself being disgusted by the excuses people use for sin in the name of love, as if a Christian cannot call out sin in love without being judgmental. If that were the case, there would be no support groups, no discipleship, no accountability.

[Zero Tolerance]

Uhhhh...the real dominating didn't start until after 300AD.
Any person who did not recognize the Roman Catholic Church as THE BLAMELESS CHURCH of God, was either cut-off from society by not being able to buy or sell, made to pick up and leave, jailed, tortured or killed. This included every "type" Christian other than those who bowed to the CHURCH along with the "pagans".

It sounds like Warren needs to be directed to a few World History classes. Western History was written by said CHURCH but hey...
some of the real stuff sneaks through and they weren't able to burn everything that was written (although they gave it a pretty good try).

Semantics. I think he's trying to cultivate a passion for Jesus Christ. We can argue about when the Christianity became dominant after we've saved souls.

[justsumguy]

Semantics. I think he's trying to cultivate a passion for Jesus Christ. We can argue about when the Christianity became dominant after we've saved souls.

Insane semantics. Speaking of Christian domination is sick semantics.
I saw you mention being disgusted by the excuses people SUPPOSEDLY use for sin in the name of love...
Well, using your logic...at least they are looking to love.
People doing things in the name of Christ and something good coming out of it is NO justification for doing those things. Sure, during the period of time from 300ad to 1500ad (we're talking 1200 years - 12 centuries) many good things were done in the name of Christ. Arguably, during the same period, some of the most atrocious things known to humans were done in the name of Christ. To say that the good justifies the bad is rather idiotic.
We're talking entire civilizations conquered and forced to accept the name of Christ in the name of Christ. Those who did not acquiese, were denied the good things that came with the name of Christ and in many cases forced into some of the most rugged terrain on the planet.

And I'm disgusted by the fetish supposed Christians have with people of the world sinning. I'm disgusted by Christians who want to force people of the world to live without sin as if they were Christians. If you and Warren want to point at other people's sins...start with your own. Let's see Warren write a book about his sin. Not the sin that he did back in the good old days but the sin that he lives in. Same with you.

Then maybe we'll finally get to hear about how you and he don't live in sin. You just do little meaningless sins that don't really count. I don't want to hear what the Bible has to say about it from whoever is spouting off about sin...I want to hear about their sin. When they get done, they can point their finger at those who follow them. Work on those meaningless, little sins. After that, they can point their fingers at those who used to follow them. After that, they can point their fingers at those who are thinking about following them. After all that...hopefully they will be exhausted after those decades of pointing fingers and then they can point their fingers at those who have no desire to hear anything they have to say.

Nah....let's just legislate so we can make the sinners pay for their sins, that will give is some heavenly surroundings. I mean come on...the Inquisition had to turn somebody to Christ.