Now The Liberals Are After My Organs...

[guacamole]

some people can't donate. they are too old, they have some disease (aids, hepatitis, cancer, etc)

If you signed up when you're healthy, we'll cover you. If you have always been unhealthy, we'll cover you. If you had delusions of invincibility in your college years, refused to sign up, and developed cirrhosis of the liver (is there any other kind?), no.

[Sparko]

If you signed up when you're healthy, we'll cover you. If you have always been unhealthy, we'll cover you. If you had delusions of invincibility in your college years, refused to sign up, and developed cirrhosis of the liver (is there any other kind?), no.

don't worry, they will stop stealing your body once they figure out how to grow brain-dead clones in tanks to supply everyone with fresh organs.

[guacamole]

don't worry, they will stop stealing your body once they figure out how to grow brain-dead clones in tanks to supply everyone with fresh organs.

That sounds like a zombie apocalypse waiting to happen. I doubt they'll actually develop full fledged clones, but we will have access to laboratory grown organs someday. Maybe soon.

[The Thinker]

The case in my country.

You luckily live in a country that does things a lot smarter than mine does.

[Littlejoe]

No. Your body is not your property to dispose of as you wish, whether you are alive or dead. This is why you cannot go and sell your own organs while alive. To assert otherwise is wishful thinking on your part.
fwiw,
guacmaole

The reason for not allowing you to sell your own organs has nothing to do with your right of possession...it's illegal because they do not want to foster (or further encourage) the already existent black market. The selling of organs is illegal just like the selling of drugs is illegal...For instance, I own my prescription medicine but I'm not allowed to sell it to anyone...same thing

[guacamole]

The reason for not allowing you to sell your own organs has nothing to do with your right of possession...it's illegal because they do not want to foster (or further encourage) the already existent black market. The selling of organs is illegal just like the selling of drugs is illegal...For instance, I own my prescription medicine but I'm not allowed to sell it to anyone...same thing

Are you trying to assert that you own your body as property? You don't own your body as literal actual property. Part of the reason you cannot sell your organs is because, in the US--unlike some countries, you do not own your body as literal actual property to be disposed of as you see fit. The selling of organs is illegal just like the selling of prescription drugs is illegal, but not for the same reason.

[Sparko]

Are you trying to assert that you own your body as property? You don't own your body as literal actual property. Part of the reason you cannot sell your organs is because, in the US--unlike some countries, you do not own your body as literal actual property to be disposed of as you see fit. The selling of organs is illegal just like the selling of prescription drugs is illegal, but not for the same reason.

huh? There is lots of property you can't just dispose of as you see fit. Try dumping your car in the river. There are rules and regulation on all sorts of property disposal and usage but it is still property. and yeah you pretty much can dispose of your body as you see fit. You can bury it, donate it to science, donate your organs, cremate it, whatever you like. And while you are alive you can do things like tatoo it, chop off parts, insert parts, change parts, pierce it, burn it, poison it, turn it into a solid mass of muscle (or fat), and apparently now you can change genders. How is your body NOT your property?

[guacamole]

huh? There is lots of property you can't just dispose of as you see fit. Try dumping your car in the river. There are rules and regulation on all sorts of property disposal and usage but it is still property.

But you can dispose of those things as you see fit, within reason.

and yeah you pretty much can dispose of your body as you see fit. You can bury it, donate it to science, donate your organs, cremate it, whatever you like.

Not while you're alive, you can't.

And while you are alive you can do things like tatoo it, chop off parts, insert parts, change parts, pierce it, burn it, poison it, turn it into a solid mass of muscle (or fat), and apparently now you can change genders.

But none of that is selling your body or body parts as a literal possession.

How is your body NOT your property?

It's the law, sugar. I don't know what to tell you. You guys are arguing all sorts of analogies that be valid in a philosophy class, or which stoke righteous libertarian outrage, or which might be interesting to put before the SCOTUS, but's the ideas don't reflect sound legal reality as practiced. You do not actually own your body.

fwiw,
guacamole

[Sparko]

But you can dispose of those things as you see fit, within reason.



Not while you're alive, you can't.



But none of that is selling your body or body parts as a literal possession.



It's the law, sugar. I don't know what to tell you. You guys are arguing all sorts of analogies that be valid in a philosophy class, or which stoke righteous libertarian outrage, or which might be interesting to put before the SCOTUS, but's the ideas don't reflect sound legal reality as practiced. You do not actually own your body.

fwiw,
guacamole

look I agree that your body is not property in the sense that a car or a house is. But it is yours. It is in your possession and nobody else can claim it, but it can be confiscated (thrown in jail, or conscripted into the army) - no you can't sell it, but that isn't the only characteristic that makes something property. You can indeed dispose of it while you are alive. You won't continue to be alive afterwards but that's a different problem.

[Meh Gerbil]

look I agree that your body is not property in the sense that a car or a house is. But it is yours. It is in your possession and nobody else can claim it, but it can be confiscated (thrown in jail, or conscripted into the army) - no you can't sell it, but that isn't the only characteristic that makes something property. You can indeed dispose of it while you are alive. You won't continue to be alive afterwards but that's a different problem.

Sparko,
You're arguing with someone who is convinced that you don't own your own body.
Stop and think about that for a moment, and then realize the best thing you can do is slowly back out of the room.

-Meh Gerbil

[Sparko]

Sparko,
You're arguing with someone who is convinced that you don't own your own body.
Stop and think about that for a moment, and then realize the best thing you can do is slowly back out of the room.

-Meh Gerbil

He does refer to himself as a condiment.

[guacamole]

look I agree that your body is not property in the sense that a car or a house is. But it is yours. It is in your possession and nobody else can claim it, but it can be confiscated (thrown in jail, or conscripted into the army) - no you can't sell it, but that isn't the only characteristic that makes something property. You can indeed dispose of it while you are alive. You won't continue to be alive afterwards but that's a different problem.

I agree that your body is, in some sense, yours, and in that limited sense of reasonable self-determination. Part of the reason why we do not allow a person to have legal possession of their body is that then we logically must mean to also argue that another person could legally own our person. After all, if I can buy and sell myself as a literal possession, there must therefore be a buyer, and if my whole person is my possession, then my whole person is logically saleable to someone else.

The secondary problem is that all other things over which we actually have literal legal ownership are things that are not us. But, the body is fundamentally us. It is, therefore, a special category of "thing"--that which we possess, but which cannot be separated from us by permanently diminishing our circumstance and potential. That is to say, while we could live without a kidney, and perhaps sell it with out much immediate risk, we are permanently diminished in the sense that we are more vulnerable to subsequent kidney disease. To dispose of an organ of which Nature or Nature's Creator gives us two as a back up, for merely pecuniary relief or gain, is a situation that we would all remark as foolish--but which becomes possible under a system in which our body is literally our property.

Lastly, knowing that our possessions of the ordinary sort can be subject to seizure by debt or in compulsion from the court, do we really want to assert that our body is the same sort of thing and substance as those that can be taken from us legally? Should a person be forced by lawsuit to sell his extra organs to pay court ordered fines or settlements? Should a person be sold into slavery to settle a debt, a bankruptcy? And yet if a court can force liquidation of all our possessions, then why not? If a body is the same as any other possession, then there is no logical reason not to. Yes, we may pass law to prevent it, but the current legal status quo already reflects that protection without the legal and logical gerrymandering.

fwiw,
guacamole

[Sparko]

As I mentioned earlier, the government can confiscate your body (you) - by taking you to court and then sentencing you to prison. Or through conscription into the military.

[guacamole]

As I mentioned earlier, the government can confiscate your body (you) - by taking you to court and then sentencing you to prison. Or through conscription into the military.

True, but not another person, which is logically possible if my body is merely another one of my possessions.

[Leonhard]

As I mentioned earlier, the government can confiscate your body (you) - by taking you to court and then sentencing you to prison. Or through conscription into the military.

"Don't be afraid. We are from the government. We are here to help you. There is nowhere you can run. There is nowhere you can run..."