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May 19th 2012, 12:26 PM #76
Re: Modern Theology 101 - The Doctrine of Atonement
Perhaps some do and some don't but it's clear enough to me that one has to be very careful to generalize about this for not everyone follows the particular creed relative to their denomination without question.
I have referred to John Calvin and Martin Luther who's ideas about baptism are actually quite technical and many assuming that brands of Modern Calvinism adhere to their doctrine often find that they have bitten their bottom lip. (as so too speak)
I think the example of the Ethiopian Eunuch (he was a eunuch, right?) is certainly a good example of the importance that John the Baptist, Jesus and yes to Philip the evangelist as Paul placed on the importance of water baptism. However that being said the passage I referred to in Colossians placed another colour in our pallette and that is the mystical union with Christ which very often happens prior to baptism some being baptised later (as in my own case, being only baptised two years after being spiritually baptised) Though the phrase used at the time 'to fulfill all righteousness' by the elder who counselled me might be appropriate I think that the reference was too Jesus alone and something that he needed to do as too the many other things that he did as he fulfilled what he was reading in the Scriptures.
As to the spiritual aspect of this I can certainly understand that the passage in 2 Corinthians (I referred to has strong import in this regard) for it is one among many passages of Scripture that leap out of us as we attempt to assemble the puzzle or weave the tapestry that is the "sacrifice of atonement" Have your read Douglas Moo in this regard?
Peace,
headheart
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May 19th 2012, 05:10 PM #77
Re: Modern Theology 101 - The Doctrine of Atonement
The first of the signs of Christ was the changing of the water into wine at the Marriage at Cana... Is this the kind of sign you mean that Baptism IS?
There is no scripture that states that Baptism is a Sign...
There is plenteous Scripture that tells us that we are Baptized into Christ...
Nothing in the Bible about Baptism being what you call here a FORMALITY... eg a "formal joining"...As seen in the WCF quotation above, baptism is also the formal joining of Christ's visible church,...
Then the exceptions are explained by the rule... When you say that Baptism is a SIGN that is a FORMALITY of something that has its REALITY elsewhere, you are ripping it from its ontology as delineated in Scripture... Baptism into Christ is Baptism in water - Nowhere in Scripture do you find a dry baptism... This Baptism into Christ is in water but is not a "water baptism" as opposed to some other baptism into Christ... There is one Baptism into Christ, which He sanctified in His Baptism at the hands of John the Baptist in the River Jordan...yes, normative. As usual, Paul addresses the normal situation of how things should be. I don't see what's so surprising about that. When I say "Rock Doves are grey," obviously I'm speaking of the typical pigeon, a rule not disproved by the rare albino Rock Dove.
It was simply the time it took for men to be discipled in those times... No rule at all - The rule, if any, is that one must be prepared for Baptism by being discipled, and this is by Christ's commandment to "Go, disciple the nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit teaching them all that I have commanded you, to be observing..." Clearly Christ commanded what they then obeyed...That rule bears little resemblance to the actual Biblical anecdotes about baptism (e.g. Acts 8:34-36; Acts 16).
As usual, men are very good at making up rules where God has not spoken.
But I do agree with your observation - The history of the Western Church is replete with myriad examples of men making up their own rules...
You have not been paying very close attention - Our atonement is Christ - His overcoming death by his holy death on the Cross - And we IN Christ by Baptism into Christ through Faith [repentance]...You have still not said a word about what atonement is.
Who or what is YOUR atonement?
We are fixated on Christ, obeying all that He commanded us to be doing... From generation to generation, even to the present time...Not surprising; in my observation the Eastern Church is quite fixated on the rituals with little thought for the underlying substance.
Your fixation is on...??? Calvin's (human and mis-)understanding of Scripture?
Arsenios
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May 19th 2012, 05:31 PM #78
Re: Modern Theology 101 - The Doctrine of Atonement
I have not read Moo...
Look - I, like you, had some very extraordinary spiritual events that led up to my Baptism into Christ... And I did indeed at that time experience "eternal life", although at the time, I was not a Christian in my understanding... That is why I reference the "salvation" found in Old Testament times and contrast it with that of the New Testament - Because there is no experiential difference, yet there is huge ontological difference... Being filled with the Holy Spirit is NOT salvation in Christ - The holy ones of the Old Testament had this filling with the Holy Spirit, yet were not IN Christ, until the Resurrection, wherein we now CAN BE in Christ, IF we are baptized into Christ... We now can become members of Christ's Body, which the Prophets of old could not do... Ananias gave Saul the Holy Spirit by baptizing him... Old Testament prophets could not do this, though Elias came close by imparting his Grace after his ascension to Esias... Which was a type of the Grace of the Church to come in Christ...
But here is what I am getting at - YOU cannot tell the difference between what you receive from the Holy Spirit in the CALL to Christ and what is salvation in Christ - Do you not remember how Peter concluded after the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Gentiles: "How then can we forbid them the water?" They still needed to be baptized into Christ, you see... And the filling with the Holy Spirit, the speaking in tongues, and prophesying all confirmed their NEED for baptism, and their having been prepared for it, and their being so indicated by the Holy Spirit... Peter did NOT say: "Well, they have been baptized into the Body of Christ by their spiritual experiences with the Holy Spirit..." Instead, he said, in effect: "Now, therefore, we must baptize them..." They needed Baptism because they were NOT baptized by their experience of the Holy Spirit... Scripture only records that they filled with the Holy Spirit, and THEN werre baptized...
The Ethiopian was a great man, responsible for the entire wealth of Ethopia, and an eunuch...
He brought Baptism into Christ to Ethopia...
Arsenios
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May 19th 2012, 08:13 PM #79
Re: Modern Theology 101 - The Doctrine of Atonement
Sure, we are baptized into Christ. As I said, we become part of his body, the visible church, through the rite of baptism.
I certainly have never argued for a "dry baptism" and am not even sure what it would look like.Then the exceptions are explained by the rule... When you say that Baptism is a SIGN that is a FORMALITY of something that has its REALITY elsewhere, you are ripping it from its ontology as delineated in Scripture... Baptism into Christ is Baptism in water - Nowhere in Scripture do you find a dry baptism... This Baptism into Christ is in water but is not a "water baptism" as opposed to some other baptism into Christ... There is one Baptism into Christ, which He sanctified in His Baptism at the hands of John the Baptist in the River Jordan...
The Bible doesn't show men as being discipled for years before baptism. It shows men who have professed faith in Christ being baptized very quickly. If you're saying that it takes some people years of hanging around Christians before they profess faith, that may be true, but I don't know why it would take that long normally.It was simply the time it took for men to be discipled in those times... No rule at all - The rule, if any, is that one must be prepared for Baptism by being discipled, and this is by Christ's commandment to "Go, disciple the nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit teaching them all that I have commanded you, to be observing..." Clearly Christ commanded what they then obeyed...
You haven't made any connection between "overcoming death" and "atonement." To say that "Christ is our atonement" is not to explain what atonement is.You have not been paying very close attention - Our atonement is Christ - His overcoming death by his holy death on the Cross - And we IN Christ by Baptism into Christ through Faith [repentance]...
I'll give my explanation (which you surely already know), but first I would like to see you actually articulate what atonement is. Not how we get it, but what it consists of.Who or what is YOUR atonement?
Nonsense. As if the Eastern Church were not barnacled with layers and layers of accumulated tradition! Generation to generation, indeed.We are fixated on Christ, obeying all that He commanded us to be doing... From generation to generation, even to the present time... Your fixation is on...??? Calvin's (human and mis-)understanding of Scripture?
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May 20th 2012, 12:32 AM #80
Re: Modern Theology 101 - The Doctrine of Atonement
Is such a connection all that hard for you to see? Adam sinned and died, and we in Adam's death now sin and die... Christ, by embracing our death sinlessly, overcame death in Himself, and in this He atoned for our sins, and for Adam's... To atone is to reconcile differences, and sin is a difference we have with God, but not in Christ... Hence Christ is our atonement... For in Him we find reconciliation with God for our sins...
Originally posted by Arsenios
Here is the Greek word: katallagh
exchange
of the business of money changers,
exchanging equivalent values
adjustment of a difference,
reconciliation,
restoration to favour
in the NT of the restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ
The basic idea is to restore an equivalent equity, and with respect to the fall of Adam, this means reconciliation for those who become and remain members of the Body of Christ Who, being without sin and having overcome death by His sinless death, IS our atonement with God... The sinner is reconciled to God in repentance, which is what the Faith IS, in the Body of Christ... Without repentance, there is no reconciliation, irrespective of one's baptismal status... Indeed, if one is going to abide in sin, it is better not to be baptized...
So enough of the ramble... The Fall of Adam was a fall from the Grace of God... Christ's atoning sacrifice is the means of our return to that Grace... For those who are baptized into Christ... For He died without sin voluntarily, thereby overcoming death in Himself, and we likewise in Him... And we have been doing it for 2000 years and counting...
Arsenios
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May 20th 2012, 12:37 AM #81
Re: Modern Theology 101 - The Doctrine of Atonement
One-of-the-best and you couldn't lose from excellent scholarship when dealing with such a tender topic of the Saviour's sacrifice of atonement.
Epistle to the Romans (New International Commentary on the New Testament) [Hardcover]
Douglas J. Moo
Shalom, and goodbye for now.
Peace,
headheart
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May 20th 2012, 02:48 AM #82
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May 20th 2012, 10:02 PM #83
Re: Modern Theology 101 - The Doctrine of Atonement
It is how you received your Bible... Indeed, in the first years of the Faith, there was only the lxx Greek Old Testament...
Originally posted by Arsenios
Here's a poser for you - Can you imitate Paul and the first Apostles? Can you preach the Gospel of Christ solely from the Old Testament?
Throw away the whole of the New Testament -
Pretend the NT has never been written...
Can you still preach the Gospel of Christ?
They could and did, writing the NT as time permitted and mandated...
So here is the poser to you: Can you preach the Gospel of Salvation in Christ without the New Testament?
ArseniosLast edited by Rdr. Arsenios; May 20th 2012 at 10:26 PM.
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May 20th 2012, 10:23 PM #84
Re: Modern Theology 101 - The Doctrine of Atonement
So the question then becomes, "What is the inequity that needs restoration?" And it is obviously the Fall of Adam, yes? Satan deceived Eve who abetted Satan in the fall of Adam... With the consequence that death entered creation with dominion over man, which IS the fall of Adam that needs restoration... Satan tried to destroy God's creation in His image, (eg Man), and God was the only one who could set it right, for Adam sinned, and Christ did not, and Christ thereby overcame the power of death in Himself, and we do too but only in Him...
The atonement was God suffering death Who had no death in Him, for He did not sin at all...
And thereby He overcame death in Himself, becoming the New Adam...
And we in Him, as members of His Body, the Church, follow Him...
ArseniosLast edited by Rdr. Arsenios; May 20th 2012 at 10:24 PM.
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May 21st 2012, 08:32 AM #85
Re: Modern Theology 101 - The Doctrine of Atonement
Paul and the Apostles did not "preach the Gospel of Christ solely from the Old Testament." They used the Old Testament extensively and then explained how it applied to Jesus, both of which I can do. But of course, "Jesus fulfills the Old Testament," is an evangelistic approach that works best with people who already know and believe the Old Testament. The modern audience generally starts in quite a different place and is liable to respond to that line of argumentation with "So what?"
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May 21st 2012, 08:41 AM #86
Re: Modern Theology 101 - The Doctrine of Atonement
You're getting warmer. How does God suffering death relate to Christ overcoming the power of death in a general sense, though? After all, men still die. And the fact that one man was cured of a disease does not cure all the other people who have that same disease.
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May 21st 2012, 11:46 AM #87
Re: Modern Theology 101 - The Doctrine of Atonement
The reason that sinless God suffering death overcomes death?
1: God is uncreated...
2: God became created in the purity of His ever-blessed virgin Mother...
3: Death only can exist as a consequence of sin...
4: God incarnate did no sin at all...
THEREFORE...
There is no death in the death of God incarnate...
Indeed, the Power of God overcomes the absence of such power in death...
Death has no chance at all against such power...
The realm of death where it has power is the realm of sin only...
As to your specific objection that this does not address the general question, because all die, [even Christ died, yes?], the answer is clearly that Christ Resurrected and Ascended to His Father in Heaven... So that His death is the ONLY death has overcome Death... Sinners are still left upon the earth, where they may continue in their sins and die, or where they may turn from their sins when they hear the Gospel and then live by entering into the Body of Christ, the Apostolic Church.
Joh_11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me
shall never die.
Believest thou this?
This is the only "general sense" in which death is overcome by us fallen men, for in Christ, we become partakers of the Divine Nature...
2Pe_1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises:
that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,
having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
And indeed, that one man was not cured, as you say, but IS THE CURE, and the only way that we can BE CURED is by becoming a MEMBER OF HIS BODY, which is the Church, the Body of Christ Who is Her Head - [This is the persecuted Woman of Revelation 12] Christ took on fallen flesh and did NOT fall in it as did Adam, so that we who ARE fallen in Adam, can not come to be IN CHRIST by Baptism into Christ...
Still waiting on your theory of atonement... I am hoping that it is NOT the one where God is SO MAD at Adam's sin that He HAS TO punish someone, and His Son is the ONLY ONE Whom He CAN punish enough to SATISFY His OFFENDED SELF... So that He sent His Son to take the punishment that will be enough to satisfy his anger... Please don't tell me that this is your theory of atonement...
The reason Christ suffered and died, btw, is because it is by means of suffering and death that evil maintains its control of men on earth... By embracing suffering and death, Christ sanctified them as the means of our overcoming sin and death in ourselves when we are in Him... This is what it means to preach the Cross, for we are to take up our own cross daily, and to be dying daily, as we suffer for the Kingdom of Heaven, the Body of Christ on earth... Christ did not ascend the Cross so that we do not have to, but in order that we CAN, because it is in this manner that we attain the Kingdom of Heaven... Paul writes: "I am dying daily..." THAT is the essence of the preaching of the Cross...
Arsenios
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May 21st 2012, 12:04 PM #88
Re: Modern Theology 101 - The Doctrine of Atonement
OK. I don't see any specific answer here to the question I posed, but that absence is an answer of a sort.
Not just SO MAD at Adam's sin, of course. Each of us sins as well. You do believe that God is capable of wrath over sin, don't you?Still waiting on your theory of atonement... I am hoping that it is NOT the one where God is SO MAD at Adam's sin that He HAS TO punish someone, and His Son is the ONLY ONE Whom He CAN punish enough to SATISFY His OFFENDED SELF... So that He sent His Son to take the punishment that will be enough to satisfy his anger... Please don't tell me that this is your theory of atonement.
You are mistaken. The central message of the cross is not "Try and do your best to be sacrificial, like Jesus." That's good advice (and even true advice, and even part of what Jesus came to teach), but not good news. Good news is not that we can become acceptable to God by trying to be like Jesus, but rather that Jesus has already made us acceptable to God through his life, death, and resurrection.The reason Christ suffered and died, btw, is because it is by means of suffering and death that evil maintains its control of men on earth... By embracing suffering and death, Christ sanctified them as the means of our overcoming sin and death in ourselves when we are in Him... This is what it means to preach the Cross, for we are to take up our own cross daily, and to be dying daily, as we suffer for the Kingdom of Heaven, the Body of Christ on earth... Christ did not ascend the Cross so that we do not have to, but in order that we CAN, because it is in this manner that we attain the Kingdom of Heaven... Paul writes: "I am dying daily..." THAT is the essence of the preaching of the Cross.
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May 21st 2012, 01:33 PM #89
Re: Modern Theology 101 - The Doctrine of Atonement
Christ's death did not eradicate death in its entirety, but only the power of death over us, by utterly destroying its power in Christ Himself, and through Him, in us who believe in Him and are members of His Body, the Church...
When Holy Writ speaks of the wrath of God, it is not speaking of human wrath, but of Divine Love... They are one and the same...You do believe that God is capable of wrath over sin, don't you?
So that when the Bible speaks of God's wrath, it is speaking in terms that fallen humanity can understand - It is a condescension...
So that it is not a question of God's capability of wrath, but of how He manifests His wanton LOVE for man...
We live, you see, in the fallen and earthly realm of the power of darkness...
IF we turn to God, we gain His Providence unto good...
And if we turn to sin, He withdraws and we are subject to the forces of evil...
It is the WRATH OF DEMONIC POWERS that we need fear...
And conduct that embraces their agenda of sin...
Our fear is that we might offend God by any sin...
And give Him reason to withdraw His Grace from us...
It is the demons who hate us...
And it is God Who loves us...
Wrath is demonic...
Love is Divine...
The "wrath of God" refers to our EXPERIENCE of the implacable hatred that the demonic powers have for us...
And this when we sin and God gives us over to our free choice to do sin...
And even this is by the Love of God, for therein He gives us prophesy of our future if we do not repent...
Remember the unrepentant sinner Paul turned over to the demons?
He was restored in that action by Paul, btw...
You have obviously forgotten the very FIRST WORD of the Good News of Jesus Christ:You are mistaken.
The central message of the cross is not "Try and do your best to be sacrificial, like Jesus."
That's good advice (and even true advice, and even part of what Jesus came to teach),
but not good news.
Good news is not that we can become acceptable to God by trying to be like Jesus,
but rather that Jesus has already made us acceptable to God
through his life, death, and resurrection.
Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach and to say,
"Be ye repenting, for the kingdom of the heavens is at hand."
Jesus is, after all, fully capable of announcing the Good News -
And the very first word of that Good News is a COMMANDMENT...
That commandment is to be DOING a WORK...
It is a VERB in the ONGOING PRESENT TENSE...
And that word is METANOEITE in Greek -
It is normally translated into English as:
REPENT
ArseniosLast edited by Rdr. Arsenios; May 21st 2012 at 01:35 PM.
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May 21st 2012, 03:05 PM #90
Re: Modern Theology 101 - The Doctrine of Atonement
Not making progress, but OK. I'll drop that line of questioning.
I find "The wrath of God is not really the wrath of God, but rather is the wrath of demons" to be a wholly unbiblical exposition of the concept of "God's wrath."When Holy Writ speaks of the wrath of God, it is not speaking of human wrath, but of Divine Love... They are one and the same...
So that when the Bible speaks of God's wrath, it is speaking in terms that fallen humanity can understand - It is a condescension...
So that it is not a question of God's capability of wrath, but of how He manifests His wanton LOVE for man...
We live, you see, in the fallen and earthly realm of the power of darkness...
IF we turn to God, we gain His Providence unto good...
And if we turn to sin, He withdraws and we are subject to the forces of evil...
It is the WRATH OF DEMONIC POWERS that we need fear...
And conduct that embraces their agenda of sin...
Our fear is that we might offend God by any sin...
And give Him reason to withdraw His Grace from us...
It is the demons who hate us...
And it is God Who loves us...
Wrath is demonic...
Love is Divine...
The "wrath of God" refers to our EXPERIENCE of the implacable hatred that the demonic powers have for us...
And this when we sin and God gives us over to our free choice to do sin..
Of course Jesus preached repentance, and of course we must repent. He couldn't very well preach the good news of his propitiating death until it happened. But he could preach that it was "at hand," and he could tell people about the response he expects: repentance.You have obviously forgotten the very FIRST WORD of the Good News of Jesus Christ:
Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach and to say,
"Be ye repenting, for the kingdom of the heavens is at hand."
Jesus is, after all, fully capable of announcing the Good News -
And the very first word of that Good News is a COMMANDMENT...
That commandment is to be DOING a WORK...
It is a VERB in the ONGOING PRESENT TENSE...
And that word is METANOEITE in Greek -
It is normally translated into English as:
REPENT
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