What Does Atheism Have To Offer?

[seer]

Let me start with a quote from Dawkins:

In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.

So what is the up side to atheism? It's hard to see any. No ultimate purpose, if all mankind was destroyed tomorrow the universe would carry on with out us with "pitiless indifference."

One could say that the atheist has merit in that he faces the truth head on. But in a godless universe, where there is no objective basis for ethics, what real responsibility do we have to "truth?" If believing a myth gives the man hope, peace, joy and even helps him to survive - then where is the harm? Where is the down side?

[ENeGMA]

Nothing.

[seer]

Nothing.

How about hoplessness?

[technomage]

If believing a myth gives the man hope, peace, joy and even helps him to survive - then where is the harm? Where is the down side?

If it does these things, well and good. But religious faith also leads some people to lie, cheat, steal, and prey on the weak.

It seems there is no advantage to theism, or to atheism.

[The Pixie]

seer

So what is the up side to atheism? It's hard to see any. No ultimate purpose, if all mankind was destroyed tomorrow the universe would carry on with out us with "pitiless indifference."

The up side is that it is true. In philosophy, that is generally regarded as enough, I think.

Of course, you may disagree about it being true, but why would you expect it to need anything more than that? People believe atheism because they think it is true; it is not reassuring, it does not give purpose to our lives, it does not give hope, it does not give moral guidance, or peace or joy. So really, the only reason for believing atheism is because that is what the evidence points to.

Contrast to religion, which offers cultural and social benefits, gives hope, purpose, and all the rest. There are plenty of reasons to believe in religion without bothering with the evidence. Ad you said "If believing a myth gives the man hope, peace, joy ..." It is easy to see why people believe in religion, even when it is not true.

[seer]

If it does these things, well and good. But religious faith also leads some people to lie, cheat, steal, and prey on the weak.

It seems there is no advantage to theism, or to atheism.

Wouldn't you say that those men were violating the basic principles of their faith?

And belief in God and the afterlife certainly would bring a hope and peace that atheism could not offer...

[seer]

seer

The up side is that it is true. In philosophy, that is generally regarded as enough, I think.

Like I said, we really would not have a moral responsibility to the truth in a godless universe. It may be one's arbitrary preference - but I see little merit in that.

So really, the only reason for believing atheism is because that is what the evidence points to.

Well I don't know of any evidence that points to there being no God. Of course one might find comfort in the idea that morally they could do pretty much what they wanted and not worry about an ultimate judgement .

[technomage]

Wouldn't you say that those men were violating the basic principles of their faith?

At this point, my opinion of Christianity in general (and of many, but not all, Christians) is low enough that no, I would not say that. The only commandment consistently followed in Christianity is "Don't get caught"--all violations of that commandment are accidental.

And belief in God and the afterlife certainly would bring a hope and peace that atheism could not offer...

It sure does: "I've robbed, I've cheated, I've lied, and I've raped children, but I gave my soul to Jesus, so I get to do all these things and still can go to magic-happy-land when I die." There's hope and peace for you.

[seer]

At this point, my opinion of Christianity in general (and of many, but not all, Christians) is low enough that no, I would not say that. The only commandment consistently followed in Christianity is "Don't get caught"--all violations of that commandment are accidental.

That is so false technomage I wouldn't know where to begin. The fact is those men were violating the basic moral principles as set out in the New Testament. And you know that...

It sure does: "I've robbed, I've cheated, I've lied, and I've raped children, but I gave my soul to Jesus, so I get to do all these things and still can go to magic-happy-land when I die." There's hope and peace for you.

Correct T, Christianity teaches that there is forgiveness - you don't believe in forgiveness? Second or third chances?

[technomage]

That is so false technomage I wouldn't know where to begin.

No, Seer, it is accurately and precisely my opinion of Christianity and of many Christians.

The fact is those men were violating the basic moral principles as set out in the New Testament.

Oh, I'm quite aware of that. Violating the "basic moral principles as set out in the New Testament" seems to be quite a popular hobby in Christendom. But there are radical differences between the "basic moral principles as set out in the New Testament" and the actual practice of Christianity, and have been for far longer than you would dare admit.

Correct T, Christianity teaches that there is forgiveness - you don't believe in forgiveness? Second or third chances?

Nope. I don't give a tinker's damn about imagined forgiveness from your imagined God. It's your pipe-dream, you enjoy it.

I'll just sit on the sidelines, wait for the next example of Christian morality, and laugh.

[seer]

No, Seer, it is accurately and precisely my opinion of Christianity and of many Christians.

Really T? My experience has been just the opposite - long before I was a Christian, I found most of the Christians I knew to be very ethical, honest, genuine and warm. Though not perfect...

Oh, I'm quite aware of that. Violating the "basic moral principles as set out in the New Testament" seems to be quite a popular hobby in Christendom. But there are radical differences between the "basic moral principles as set out in the New Testament" and the actual practice of Christianity, and have been for far longer than you would dare admit.

I don't doubt there is a disconnect - to degrees. I'm not sure about anybody else but I often have trouble being good, it's quite difficult - at least for me.

Nope. I don't give a tinker's damn about imagined forgiveness from your imagined God. It's your pipe-dream, you enjoy it.

So you are not against forgiveness in principle? Is it a good thing? In general?

[mossrose]

No, Seer, it is accurately and precisely my opinion of Christianity and of many Christians.



Oh, I'm quite aware of that. Violating the "basic moral principles as set out in the New Testament" seems to be quite a popular hobby in Christendom. But there are radical differences between the "basic moral principles as set out in the New Testament" and the actual practice of Christianity, and have been for far longer than you would dare admit.


Nope. I don't give a tinker's damn about imagined forgiveness from your imagined God. It's your pipe-dream, you enjoy it.

I'll just sit on the sidelines, wait for the next example of Christian morality, and laugh.

[technomage]

Really T? My experience has been just the opposite - long before I was a Christian, I found most of the Christians I knew to be very ethical, honest, genuine and warm. Though not perfect...

I'm happy for you! Watch your back, and don't drop the soap.

So you are not against forgiveness in principle? Is it a good thing? In general?

I forgive when and if I wish to do so. I respect whom I wish to respect. Generally, I am content to sit, and watch, and laugh.

[technomage]

Can you honestly tell me the shoe doesn't fit, Mossy?

I've tried being open and honest with Christians. I've tried seeing things from y'all's point of view. I've even tried defending you people when Pagans attacked Christians unfairly. The most memorable thing I've received for my efforts are a few metaphoric knife-scars in my back. Said metaphoric knives wielded in Christian hands.

That's Christianity for you. And you're welcome to it.

[mossrose]

Without knowing the details of your issues with so-called Christians, I can't make any judgments.

All who call themselves believers are not. It's an easy name to take, and then do what one wants instead of living the life that Christ has set an example for. Sadly for the rest of us, they are terrible witnesses for Christ.

I will also say that no Christian who has life is perfect. I sin. We all sin. If you expect perfection and sinlessness from any of us, then you will surely be disappointed.

But there is such pain and bitterness in you, and that makes me very sad. I don't know what has hurt you, but my heart aches that you are so hurt. I hope that I have done nothing to add to your pain.

:huggy: