What Does Atheism Have To Offer?

[mossrose]

And right there is your problem.

You see "hopelessness" as the logical end of atheism, yet fail to realize that your "logical end" is actually a subjective value judgement. Other people--people who are atheists, who are far more intimately acquainted with what atheism actually is--do not reach the same conclusion.

If you are arrogant enough to presume that your subjective value judgment is the only possible "logical end," then may I implore you to stay a Christian. The atheists don't need you, and Christianity already has so many opinionated, arrogant idiots they'll never notice one more.

So, just out of curiosity, why aren't you an atheist? Obviously you call yourself a theist, so I find it interesting that you can find your way to even reply in this thread as if you were an atheist.

[ENeGMA]

Ok, again - if everything the atheist is, loves, or cares about, dies. That everything he does - no matter how noble, ends in dust, as all humanity, with it's works, will one day end in dust - then where is the hope? I mean anyone can ascribe temporal, subjective meaning to life - but that too dies...

Why should I care what happens after I die?

Here and now I have my own purposes, meanings, and goals and why I would want to follow some purpose or goal that wasn't of my own choosing is something I don't understand.

So what's the problem? Here and now I give myself direction and after I'm dead I won't be able to concern myself with anything, so why does it matter what happens after I die?

[Kane]

Yes and no, fire insurance in the future but more peace and joy now. Like I said - if belief in a god and a afterlife helps one cope and makes for a better life - what is the downside?

Peace and joy now? Hardly. I've met very few Christians who are actually peaceful and joyful. And I've met thousands and thousands of them, having at one point been a Christian minister. This is not to say that no Christian isn't peaceful and joyful. However, my experience as a former Christian is that most Christians are not content, and not joyful. I think the anecdote from Hannah Whitall Smith's book The Christian's Secret to a Happy Life (p. 15) sums things up nicely:

"A Keen observer once said to me, 'You Christians seem to have a religion that makes you miserable. You are like a man with a headache. He does not want to get rid of his head, but it hurts him to keep it. You cannot expect outsiders to seek very earnestly for anything so uncomfortable.'"

Irrational beliefs, even if they help one cope for a time, are by your own admission a 'crutch'. Someone who breaks his leg only needs a crutch for a time -- and it is rational to have one! But there comes a time when that leg needs to gain back its strength and the crutch needs to be thrown away. The same is true of crutch-beliefs, or irrational beliefs: they may help one cope for a while, but a person needs to be able to stand one their own two legs, so-to-speak. In other words, the irrational beliefs need to be thrown away.

Yes that would be the case, voodooism might actually bring some advantage - so why not?

Because it takes more than it gives. It raises more questions than it answers.

What makes you think that you are rational? Can you prove that?

Are we communicating anything meaningful with each other in this exchange? Are you comprehending the words I am writing back to you? Are we fairly exchanging opposing points of view? Your answer to these questions should prove instructive as to my rationality.

And what advantage is there in being rational if an irrational belief helps you to survive better?

Rationally speaking, you're setting the bar pretty low if an irrational belief is something that simply helps you to 'get by', as it were. You are allowed to have more than mere survival.

[Seasanctuary]

So, just out of curiosity, why aren't you an atheist? Obviously you call yourself a theist, so I find it interesting that you can find your way to even reply in this thread as if you were an atheist.

He's disagreeing with one (frequent) Christian sentiment. Other Christians and Theists who aren't Christians at all can do that without expressing Atheism.

In fact, you could affirm that your life would have meaning through your relationships with friends and family even if you are wrong in your religious beliefs.

[seer]

Why should I care what happens after I die?

Correct, but I think my point is getting lost in all this. Perhaps I didn't choose the correct title. I just don't see any down side in believing in myth, if it helps one survive and cope better. I don't see any compelling argument for unbelief, even if atheism is true.

[Seasanctuary]

Correct, but I think my point is getting lost in all this. Perhaps I didn't choose the correct title. I just don't see any down side in believing in myth, if it helps one survive and cope better. I don't see any compelling argument for unbelief, even if atheism is true.

Christianity creates rifts in relationships between believer and unbeliever, often within families.

[Alien]

Like I said, we really would not have a moral responsibility to the truth in a godless universe. It may be one's arbitrary preference - but I see little merit in that.

I don't see a moral aspect to truth-seeking, but I do see a huge practical advantage to it.

If you are in a burning building, does the difference between knowing the correct way to the exit and being mistaken about it matter? Is thinking that no harm comes from jumping off a cliff a useful belief, even if it may be comforting?

If Christianity is truly the only way to avoid eternal torment, then then believing or not believing this has immense practical consequences. If Atheism is factually correct, then we can save a huge amount of wasted time by not pursuing religious "truth" and put that time to better use elsewhere.

I guess there are some beliefs that are comforting and relatively harmless, but I wouldn't put either theism or atheism in that category.

[seer]

Peace and joy now? Hardly. I've met very few Christians who are actually peaceful and joyful. And I've met thousands and thousands of them, having at one point been a Christian minister. This is not to say that no Christian isn't peaceful and joyful. However, my experience as a former Christian is that most Christians are not content, and not joyful. I think the anecdote from Hannah Whitall Smith's book The Christian's Secret to a Happy Life (p. 15) sums things up nicely:

First Chris, I did not even suggest that myth belief would induce peace and joy in every life - my faith certainly does. Second, you are asking the wrong question - it is not how miserable the man is with Christ, but how miserable he would have been without faith. He may have been much worse.

Irrational beliefs, even if they help one cope for a time, are by your own admission a 'crutch'. Someone who breaks his leg only needs a crutch for a time -- and it is rational to have one! But there comes a time when that leg needs to gain back its strength and the crutch needs to be thrown away. The same is true of crutch-beliefs, or irrational beliefs: they may help one cope for a while, but a person needs to be able to stand one their own two legs, so-to-speak. In other words, the irrational beliefs need to be thrown away.

No, in this case the myth would have to last a life time for it to have the desired effect. Why go from the hope of belief to the hoplessness of unbelief - kind of defeats the whole purpose. But again, what's the big deal if we carry these irrational, crutch-beliefs to death - so what? What standard of truth have we violtated?

Because it takes more than it gives. It raises more questions than it answers.

So what - if it helps them cope.

Are we communicating anything meaningful with each other in this exchange? Are you comprehending the words I am writing back to you? Are we fairly exchanging opposing points of view? Your answer to these questions should prove instructive as to my rationality.

So your rationality depends on my opinion? And remember a man can be rational in one area of life but not in another. So no, I do not know if you are rational. But you claimed to be rational, perhaps you can offer an objective standard for said rationality....

Rationally speaking, you're setting the bar pretty low if an irrational belief is something that simply helps you to 'get by', as it were. You are allowed to have more than mere survival.

But again, faith in a god/afterlife, whether rational or not, brings millions, if not billions, of people purpose, joy, a reason to get up in the morning and most importantly hope. Again, I see not downside...

[seer]

Christianity creates rifts in relationships between believer and unbeliever, often within families.

So do different political views. And? BTW - it has never caused a rift with my loved ones - they certainly were not all christian...

[seer]

I don't see a moral aspect to truth-seeking, but I do see a huge practical advantage to it.

If you are in a burning building, does the difference between knowing the correct way to the exit and being mistaken about it matter? Is thinking that no harm comes from jumping off a cliff a useful belief, even if it may be comforting?

Apples and oranges - most Christians I know would run out of the building. Most believers I know of different faiths are quite rational.

If Christianity is truly the only way to avoid eternal torment, then then believing or not believing this has immense practical consequences. If Atheism is factually correct, then we can save a huge amount of wasted time by not pursuing religious "truth" and put that time to better use elsewhere.

Time better spent for whom? That is a completely subjective response. Again, if myth belief helps a man survive and cope better - it it brings joy and purpose then where is the harm? Or why should we care - it all dies in the end anyway...

I guess there are some beliefs that are comforting and relatively harmless, but I wouldn't put either theism or atheism in that category.

But it is not for you to decide...

[technomage]

Or why should we care - it all dies in the end anyway...

I don't.

I don't care if you believe 20 impossible things before breakfast. My only objection is when Christians attempt to foist their ridiculous beliefs on me, or on my family, either by legislation or by subverting the schools.

And don't even pretend that there are no Christians who do these things.

[The Pixie]

seer

Correct, but I think my point is getting lost in all this. Perhaps I didn't choose the correct title. I just don't see any down side in believing in myth, if it helps one survive and cope better. I don't see any compelling argument for unbelief, even if atheism is true.

So this is about making lifestyle choice to believe something you have no particular reason to think is actually true, because it is reassuring and gives purpose, rather than a philosophical discussion about what is true.

[seer]

I don't.

I don't care if you believe 20 impossible things before breakfast. My only objection is when Christians attempt to foist their ridiculous beliefs on me, or on my family, either by legislation or by subverting the schools.

And don't even pretend that there are no Christians who do these things.

But even here - so what? We are all dust in the end. And it isn't just Christians - the stalinist or socialist may try to control your life because of his political beliefs. It's all quite natural...

[technomage]

But even here - so what?

Try not to be any more idiotic than you can help, eh?

[seer]

seer

So this is about making lifestyle choice to believe something you have no particular reason to think is actually true, because it is reassuring and gives purpose, rather than a philosophical discussion about what is true.

No, the myth believer would probably think his particular myth is true. But like I said, I see no moral duty to the truth in a godless universe - especially if the "truth" causes one to not survive as well, or lessens his quality of life.