Hell. A Poor Motivation For Conversion?

[Zguy28]

Jack Chick's brainwashing techniques works on some ( madness )
Jesus was a hellavu lot smarter than Jack Chick, that is why he did not talk about it all the time. He only spoke about it when it was appropriate, and often cloaked it in metaphors. ie. worms, maggots, fire, brimstone, abraham's bosom, lake, chasma,...etc.

We are supposed to be busy preaching reconciliation, not hell and tar-nation!

Peace,
Eric J. Sawyer.

Let's role-play for a second. I'll play the pagan. Preach to me Eric.

Reconciliation? Why do I need that?

[RBerman]

Let's role-play for a second. I'll play the pagan. Preach to me Eric. Reconciliation? Why do I need that?

Francis Schaeffer once said that given the way modern man is, if he had an hour to explain Christianity to someone, he would need to spend 55 minutes of it talking about sin before the 5 minutes talking about the work of Christ would make sense.

[headheart]

Bookmark: Modern Theology - The Doctrine of Atonement

I am reading bling's - Problems with Substiturionary Atonement, and catching up on about two years threads, (yours included). Once I have considered all of that, plus what I am currently studying, I will consider posting up some of my own thoughts, but for I now I shall leave you to build your Arky-Ark.

btw. My first post to TWC in October 2006, was about 'The Atonement', so I will probably be wanting to explore the "L" in TUPLIP, as well as the notorious "T", for Trouble. Essentially I have quite a bit of catching up to do, so don't bother your head too much.

Peace,
Eric J. Sawyer.

[Paloma'sCastle]

Of course it is. We believe because Christianity is rational. In any case, it doesn't even make sense. An unbeliever won't be swayed by a Hell they don't believe in. And fear doesn't beget love or loyalty, unless the loyalty is only nominal and only for a season.

Jesus speaks about hell more often than heaven in the bible

The only record the bible has for people going to heaven 144,000
100,000,000,000 people who ever lived on earth
- 144,000 people going to heaven
99,999,856,000 total of people in hell

The greatest threat to mankind is nuclear war and natural environment crises. We are crippling ourselves by War budgets over poverty budget then USA calls it a Christian defense mode .War is Hell on Mother Earth USA has half the military budget of the world combined. USA combined with Russia has 90% of the war heads in the world. Is Since religion works much in hand and hand with world political and tools militarily. Is it a central belief amongst the religions that nature was created by God and for an example the Bible as presenting human dominance over nature?
I’m fearless, why should a Christian fear much moment with devil monkey on his Back on earth, then most likely for an eternity afterlife?

[RBerman]

The only record the bible has for people going to heaven 144,000

That's not what that number represents.

[Whateverman]

Does your friend's assertion seem rational or even reasonable? Perhaps he needs to take a look for himself in order to gain more evidence. Well, that's fine. Why not the same for the skeptic who says fear of hell should not be his motivation for responding to Christ? The possibility of Hell should at least cause a person to take a closer look. I believe it is, not only a good motivator for at least the first step, but one that cannot, and must not be ignored... any more than a speeding train approaching from behind.

I think your analogy is close but not quite on the money.

The warning IRT the train is a sufficient motivator for the deaf person to turn around and look for himself, but it's not necessarily sufficient for immediately jumping. The original OP's question involved jumping, not investigating.

I don't think Hell is a motivator for conversion. You might be able to say it's unreasonable to ignore it completely, on the off-chance that Hell is a real threat. However, I find that those who reject Hell without investigation and those who reject it after having investigated are often treated exactly the same by believers. They're categorized as not having looked carefully enough.

[mickiel]

Jesus talked about hell while He was here on earth more than any other topic.

It seems a fairly important idea.

This is a common Christian lie, its purely deceptive and biblically wrong, and a simple concordance study will bear this out. Hell is refered to in the bible around 80-90 times , perhaps a few more according to what translation you have. Heaven is refered to 1700-1800 times.

Peace.

[justsumguy]

Jesus talked about hell while He was here on earth more than any other topic.

It seems a fairly important idea.

Huh? Jesus talked about self-righteousness way more than he did about hell and almost all his references to hell were directed at the self-righteous. The word Hadees occurs eleven times in the New Testament, and is translated Hell ten times, and grave once (it could be translated grave everytime - same as Sheol in the OT. Gehenna just 12 times and Gehenna was a well-known place and should be translated "Gehenna" . And then we have Tartarus once? And we're talking the entire NT...not the words of Jesus.

[infide]

Hi UK_Apologist!

Christianity teaches Hell.

Ok, so I would start right here. How confident are you that Christianity teaches the kind of Hell that Dante or Jonathan Edward's preached about? Colossians Chapter 1 (among other places) seems to suggest that this is wrong on some level. Jesus talked about hell - but what did he mean? Did he mean a punishment (judgement) of our own making, or an eternal hell of unquenchable fire?

From a rational point of view - if such a place of torment existed, how would God benefit from such a punishment? The first rule of honest justice is that the punishment must fit the crime. Contemplate the notion of unending torment, and then tell me that any crime or sin could be worth such a sentence. This is simply incompatible with a just human ruler, let alone a perfect divine one.

Using hell as a motivation for conversion necessitates that Hell is even a real place, as it has been imagined by Christians. I assure you this is false.

It's a poor motivation for conversion as it is based on fear.

Well, actually, fear is a really good motivator. Fear is felt by the human body and processed by the human brain before other cognitive functions. It is a base emotion, deeply rooted in our survival.

As such, fear can easily be used to manipulate those who never stop to contemplate the origin, basis, and rationale behind the feelings of fear they are having. To abuse the fear response of human beings for a desired goal is more along the lines of coercion rather than persuasion. So if your goal is to coerce people into Christianity against their own rational objections, then fear is the way to go (it seems to work pretty will in political campaigns here in the USA).

However, if you want to truly convince someone that your position is correct, then best to appeal to that person's reason.

More importantly is to ask yourself if it is consistent to present a view of God that is a loving, personal Father who also punishes people forever with no chance of redeeming or improving their condition. This seems to me to be fundamentally flawed.

Peace,
JD

[mickiel]

Huh? Jesus talked about self-righteousness way more than he did about hell and almost all his references to hell were directed at the self-righteous. The word Hadees occurs eleven times in the New Testament, and is translated Hell ten times, and grave once (it could be translated grave everytime - same as Sheol in the OT. Gehenna just 12 times and Gehenna was a well-known place and should be translated "Gehenna" . And then we have Tartarus once? And we're talking the entire NT...not the words of Jesus.

Christians have a bad habit and tradition of letting their pastors study for them and ditate doctrines. They preach their sermons and the members swallow it hook line and sinker, whats said in these sermons then becomes doctrine. These ministers strated this lie about Christ and the bible talking about hell more than heaven or any other topic, a few years back. Like sheep, the members heard it, believed it, and started repeating it to themselves and others.

And that is part of the root of deception in Christianity. Pastors opinions.

Peace.

[justsumguy]

Christians have a bad habit and tradition of letting their pastors study for them and ditate doctrines. They preach their sermons and the members swallow it hook line and sinker, whats said in these sermons then becomes doctrine. These ministers strated this lie about Christ and the bible talking about hell more than heaven or any other topic, a few years back. Like sheep, the members heard it, believed it, and started repeating it to themselves and others.
And that is part of the root of deception in Christianity. Pastors opinions.
Peace.

A tad bit over the top fop me in generalization but it's a valid point. There are many Christians who have not swallowed it hook, line and sinker and there have been many people write and speak extensively on the matter for centuries. I was raised in full-time ministry as a Fundamental, Bible Believing Baptist and I was always taught not to swallow anything hook, line and sinker unless it was absolutely true. I was taught to question everything man had to say and to question everything that I took on as belief.

I'm not the only one. Look at the posts on this thread.

[mickiel]

A tad bit over the top fop me in generalization but it's a valid point. There are many Christians who have not swallowed it hook, line and sinker and there have been many people write and speak extensively on the matter for centuries. I was raised in full-time ministry as a Fundamental, Bible Believing Baptist and I was always taught not to swallow anything hook, line and sinker unless it was absolutely true. I was taught to question everything man had to say and to question everything that I took on as belief.

I'm not the only one. Look at the posts on this thread.

I have yet to meet a Christian who does not put their full trust in their pastor. Christian pastors totally rule the religion in my view. In many cases their word is doctrine, and is hardly ever questioned. This is the tradition of Christianity, to follow your leader.

Peace.

[justsumguy]

I have yet to meet a Christian who does not put their full trust in their pastor. Christian pastors totally rule the religion in my view. In many cases their word is doctrine, and is hardly ever questioned. This is the tradition of Christianity, to follow your leader.
Peace.

Well...I guess this doesn't really qualify as "meeting" people but most people's personal experience is pretty limited. Although, I would agree that followers of Christ should be following their leader.

[mickiel]

Well...I guess this doesn't really qualify as "meeting" people but most people's personal experience is pretty limited. Although, I would agree that followers of Christ should be following their leader.

The next phase of Gods church will have no meddling leaders, the Holy Spirit will lead them.

Peace.

[justsumguy]

The next phase of Gods church will have no meddling leaders, the Holy Spirit will lead them.

Peace.

A leader is a leader. I like Jesus meddling. I like the Holy Spirit meddling also. Meddle away I say.