Hell. A Poor Motivation For Conversion?

[RBerman]

I have yet to meet a Christian who does not put their full trust in their pastor. Christian pastors totally rule the religion in my view. In many cases their word is doctrine, and is hardly ever questioned. This is the tradition of Christianity, to follow your leader.

I know a lot of pastors who wish they had the full trust of even half their congregation, let alone 100%

[Darth Executor]

This is a common Christian lie, its purely deceptive and biblically wrong, and a simple concordance study will bear this out. Hell is refered to in the bible around 80-90 times , perhaps a few more according to what translation you have. Heaven is refered to 1700-1800 times.

She said Jesus, not the bible. Even if He talked more about heaven than hell, talking about heaven almost 2000 times is completely and utterly absurd.

[mickiel]

I know a lot of pastors who wish they had the full trust of even half their congregation, let alone 100%

Well there are always exceptions. But the point being, most Christian Pastors have card blanch to teach what they want, and their members will digest it without thinking. Because they put their faith in their pastors, as they do God. They view what their pastors say, kind of like " God talking." So if this guy is wrong, imagine the damage he can do. This is how much of the deception in Christianity has taken place, it came down from their pastors. Their leaders. This is what God meant in Jer. 23:11, that the pastors are polluted, but are getting away with it. Look at what Bishop Eddie Long did, and he'll get away with it, and his members will blindly follow him. And many Christian pastors, scandal after scandal, are really polutted, but are being hypicritcal.

Peace.

[Pilgrim]

I have yet to meet a Christian who does not put their full trust in their pastor. Christian pastors totally rule the religion in my view. In many cases their word is doctrine, and is hardly ever questioned. This is the tradition of Christianity, to follow your leader.

Peace.

You're either not being entirely truthful for the sake of making your point or you don't get out enough or your interactions with Christians are really narrow in scope. I mean, just in this thread alone you've meet at least a dozen Christians who don't put their full trust in their pastors.

[mickiel]

You're either not being entirely truthful for the sake of making your point or you don't get out enough or your interactions with Christians are really narrow in scope. I mean, just in this thread alone you've meet at least a dozen Christians who don't put their full trust in their pastors.

I have met no such thing. Produce the dozen names you claim I met who don't trust their pastors, produce the names. Your the one not being truthful, I have met no dozen Christians like that here. Not only in this post, but any you would like to produce.

Peace.

[Pilgrim]

I would argue that every single Christian you've met on this thread stands in contradiction to your assertion. If you don't see it then the problem is with you not with them and you've let your ego drive you to a position that is not about facts or truth but about simply defending your own a priori. I for one am a Christian who has never place "Full trust" in any pastor I've ever had. On this page alone Darth an RBerman stand as examples as well.

[mickiel]

I would argue that every single Christian you've met on this thread stands in contradiction to your assertion. If you don't see it then the problem is with you not with them and you've let your ego drive you to a position that is not about facts or truth but about simply defending your own a priori. I for one am a Christian who has never place "Full trust" in any pastor I've ever had. On this page alone Darth an RBerman stand as examples as well.

Well thats three, you said I met a dozen. Admit to exaggeration, or produce the other 9. Full trust should be reserved for God and God alone in Spiritual matters. I maintain that most of Christianity places full trust in their pastors, its traditional. Its an inbred crutch, that they need to help them walk.

Peace.

[rogue06]

I have met no such thing. Produce the dozen names you claim I met who don't trust their pastors, produce the names. Your the one not being truthful, I have met no dozen Christians like that here. Not only in this post, but any you would like to produce.

Peace.

Seriously? You really think Christians are little more than automatons just waiting to be programmed and sent forth

[mickiel]

Seriously? You really think Christians are little more than automatons just waiting to be programmed and sent forth

Well its close to that, yes. Their churchs have training seminars that school the Christian mind. Classes, bible studys, all taught by their leaders. It is a type of programing, the members simply agree with the programing, because they feel its God ordained. I recall something I have seen in every Christian church service I have personally attended in the last 5 years, which is not many. The pastor tells the congregation to stand up and sit down at his will, and they do so. He tells them to " Touch three people and say this or that", and they do it automatically. He tells them to " Say something to two people next to you", and they say it automatically. They are told when to give money, and they give it, in some cases, they are told how much to give. And then told they are cursed if they don't give.

I wonder just what the curse is.

These are things I have really seen, and it is automation in my view. They are told what to pray, how to raise their children, who to marry and not marry. And in some cases, who to vote for and not vote for.

And I am not exagerating.

Peace.

[rogue06]

Well its close to that, yes. Their churchs have training seminars that school the Christian mind. Classes, bible studys, all taught by their leaders. It is a type of programing, the members simply agree with the programing, because they feel its God ordained. I recall something I have seen in every Christian church service I have personally attended in the last 5 years, which is not many. The pastor tells the congregation to stand up and sit down at his will, and they do so. He tells them to " Touch three people and say this or that", and they do it automatically. He tells them to " Say something to two people next to you", and they say it automatically. They are told when to give money, and they give it, in some cases, they are told how much to give. And then told they are cursed if they don't give.

I wonder just what the curse is.

These are things I have really seen, and it is automation in my view. They are told what to pray, how to raise their children, who to marry and not marry. And in some cases, who to vote for and not vote for.

And I am not exagerating.

Peace.

Well I certainly can’t speak to your experiences but it’s pretty obvious you never attended the same Sunday School classes that I did growing up. Unquestioning conformity would not be the term that I would ever think to use to describe it.

And while I have run across a couple authoritarian churches where the pastors or ministers attempt to run them like their personal kingdom, they almost always are suffering from shrinking congregation as members leave seeking better churches to attend (or, unfortunately, quit going to church altogether).

In the past 50 some years I’ve lived in six states and eight cities/towns, traveled through at least 30 (not including over a dozen countries) and I just have yet to encounter these “Simon Says” churches that you’ve described here

[RBerman]

Well thats three, you said I met a dozen. Admit to exaggeration, or produce the other 9. Full trust should be reserved for God and God alone in Spiritual matters. I maintain that most of Christianity places full trust in their pastors, its traditional. Its an inbred crutch, that they need to help them walk.

I'm amused that you want to cling to this point. Would it help if I start a poll thread in the Christianity forum so you can see that it's rare (at least in the sample you'll find at this forum) for Christians to put 100% trust in their pastor, or any other man? Or just interview any pastor of your choice and ask him what percent of his congregation would believe anything he says.

[mickiel]

I'm amused that you want to cling to this point. Would it help if I start a poll thread in the Christianity forum so you can see that it's rare (at least in the sample you'll find at this forum) for Christians to put 100% trust in their pastor, or any other man? Or just interview any pastor of your choice and ask him what percent of his congregation would believe anything he says.

Lets have it. Start the poll, and begin with yourself, if your telling the truth.

Peace.

[mickiel]

Well I certainly can’t speak to your experiences but it’s pretty obvious you never attended the same Sunday School classes that I did growing up. Unquestioning conformity would not be the term that I would ever think to use to describe it.

And while I have run across a couple authoritarian churches where the pastors or ministers attempt to run them like their personal kingdom, they almost always are suffering from shrinking congregation as members leave seeking better churches to attend (or, unfortunately, quit going to church altogether).

In the past 50 some years I’ve lived in six states and eight cities/towns, traveled through at least 30 (not including over a dozen countries) and I just have yet to encounter these “Simon Says” churches that you’ve described here

Two of the biggest churchs in Atlanta are like I have described, Bishop Eddie Longs church, and Creflo Dollars Church. I've seen it for myself.

Peace.

[rogue06]

Two of the biggest churchs in Atlanta are like I have described, Bishop Eddie Longs church, and Creflo Dollars Church. I've seen it for myself.

Peace.

Living outside of Atlanta myself I’ve seen interviews with members of Long’s congregation since allegations of sexual misconduct have risen and it seems that many have expressed doubts and want questions answered. Not what you’d expect for if they all marched in lock step.

True, many others have expressed complete faith that he’ll be exonerated but then that is what also happens when some long time coach/teacher/principal gets accused of sexual misconduct at some local school– even after they end up getting convicted.

Nobody likes to be shown they’ve been tricked. Nobody likes it when a trusted leader is found out to be a fraud largely because of the implication that being a follower you are a simpleton and/or dunce.

As for Dollar... He and his ministry are cons and his “health and wealth gospel” (or prosperity doctrine) is hardly orthodox. But to be honest I’m not familiar enough with it to say anything of his church’s membership. Still, I have to think with tens of thousands of members it just seems inconceivable if they are all unthinking robots awaiting their marching instructions. Even the moonies have dissidents.

[mickiel]

Living outside of Atlanta myself I’ve seen interviews with members of Long’s congregation since allegations of sexual misconduct have risen and it seems that many have expressed doubts and want questions answered. Not what you’d expect for if they all marched in lock step.

True, many others have expressed complete faith that he’ll be exonerated but then that is what also happens when some long time coach/teacher/principal gets accused of sexual misconduct at some local school– even after they end up getting convicted.

Nobody likes to be shown they’ve been tricked. Nobody likes it when a trusted leader is found out to be a fraud largely because of the implication that being a follower you are a simpleton and/or dunce.

As for Dollar... He and his ministry are cons and his “health and wealth gospel” (or prosperity doctrine) is hardly orthodox. But to be honest I’m not familiar enough with it to say anything of his church’s membership. Still, I have to think with tens of thousands of members it just seems inconceivable if they are all unthinking robots awaiting their marching instructions. Even the moonies have dissidents.

Well I understand, but many Christian congregations have been duked, and you know it. As far as Creflo Dollars church, I have been there, I had a girlfriend who attended there, that was the only reason I went the times I did. 90% of his congregation Tithes, unheard of in ANY other Christian church that I know of. Oh he has complette control of his congregation, as does all those in his " Fellow church pastors group," Kenneth Copeland, and others whose names I can't now think of. Their members are in an " Obedience daze", totally submitted to them. I know their unthinking robots. I have met and spoken with them.

Peace.