Hell. A Poor Motivation For Conversion?

[RBerman]

Mikiel, I appreciate your honesty that you read your own beliefs into the BIble. Are you at all open to the possibility that I allow my mindset to be determined by what the Bible says, rather than just seeing in the Bible what I have already to believe?

[mickiel]

Mikiel, I appreciate your honesty that you read your own beliefs into the BIble. Are you at all open to the possibility that I allow my mindset to be determined by what the Bible says, rather than just seeing in the Bible what I have already to believe?

Well yes, I understand that, we can only be spiritually conscious of, those things we actually see in the bible. That consciousness is individual, thus we can know that not all people are conscious of the same things, in the same manner of interpitation. The bible impresses things on us differently, so one can only walk with who they agree with. I myself feel as you do exactly, in my mind, my views are formed and shaped by the bible itself and what it says to me. Yet it speaks differently to me than it does you.

So there we have it, its according to something, we just hope our interpitation is according to God and how he is dealing with our consciousness.

Peace.,

[Pilgrim]

I like God, and Christ, their plans for humanity. I like Salvation and the unlimited free Love it shows. I like mercy and forgiveness, the basic principles the bible is based on.

I like the future it shows for all.

Peace.

So you like the reward or the privileges, just not the responsibility then?

[mickiel]

So you like the reward or the privileges, just not the responsibility then?

I like Gods nature. His kindness, his Mercy, his Forgiveness, his Gentleness. I think its amazing that such a powerful being, is kind and gentle, and is not willing that any would perish. I like this most about God, his desire is that all humans come to repentance, 1Tim. 2:4. This has heavily attracted me to God, he desires everyone to be with him, I like that. In Job 23:13 it states that what God desires, that he does. According to his desire for all, hes going to get all, something christianity does not believe, but I believe it.

It is impossible for God not to get his desires, and I , for one, am glad of that.

Peace.

[mickiel]

Let me say this about responsibility. I do believe we are responsible for what we think and do, but only to a degree that I think only God can judge properly, AND, help and assist us properly. Plugged into power, a light will shine until its turned off. Think about this now. Plugged into God, we can not only be responsible for our behavior and thinking, but have the POWER to assist us in doing so! With that power of assistance and guidance, goodness, we can handle our responsibility so much better than if we were not plugged into God. Now then, what of those not plugged into God, well they must handle their responsibility on their own. Left to themselves, humans living without God may not be helpless, but they are seriously handicapped. So see humans just need God, or left to ourselves, there is so very, very much to deteriate our sense and ability to handle responsibility. And I keep this in mind when I debate people who are heavy on placing responsibility on humans who live without God. Its asking a whole lot from them.

If you have ever been without God, then you can compare the difference between responsibility with his help, and without his help, a stunning difference. And those of you fortunate enough to have his help, you need to keep this in mind as you rail on others who are without.

Peace.

[RBerman]

Well yes, I understand that, we can only be spiritually conscious of, those things we actually see in the bible. That consciousness is individual, thus we can know that not all people are conscious of the same things, in the same manner of interpitation. The bible impresses things on us differently, so one can only walk with who they agree with. I myself feel as you do exactly, in my mind, my views are formed and shaped by the bible itself and what it says to me. Yet it speaks differently to me than it does you. So there we have it, its according to something, we just hope our interpitation is according to God and how he is dealing with our consciousness.

Do you believe that the Bible has an actual messsage from God which is there to be properly understood, or is it fine if various concepts (sin, God, love, hell, etc.) mean substantially different things to different people?

[mickiel]

Do you believe that the Bible has an actual messsage from God which is there to be properly understood, or is it fine if various concepts (sin, God, love, hell, etc.) mean substantially different things to different people?

Well yes I believe the bible has an actual message from God, really " Messages", not to be limited to just one theme. Yet I think only he can render it properly understood to the intrested human. The reality is that the understasnding of it is just various to different people. As 2Timothy states, it has to be " Rightly devided", or interpited. This is where humans disagree. There exist a melting pot of interpitation in our human experience, so it falls to God, not the human, to render into the human consciousness the right interpitation. Paul was a devoted Pharisee and just knew he was right, so seriously convinced that he would kill. Then God intervened in his life and THEN the proper understanding occured and increased, but God gave the increase in his understanding, and he went on to write about it.

But Paul didNOT call himself, his will or choice had absolutely nothing to do with his conversion and new understanding. And God does not change, ANY human who understands the proper interpitation of scriptures, they do so ONLY because God imparted it into them. And understanding the truth will surprise you, because its hardly ever what you thought before God intervened.

Peace.

[RBerman]

Well yes I believe the bible has an actual message from God, really " Messages", not to be limited to just one theme. Yet I think only he can render it properly understood to the intrested human. The reality is that the understasnding of it is just various to different people. As 2Timothy states, it has to be " Rightly devided", or interpited. This is where humans disagree. There exist a melting pot of interpitation in our human experience, so it falls to God, not the human, to render into the human consciousness the right interpitation. Paul was a devoted Pharisee and just knew he was right, so seriously convinced that he would kill. Then God intervened in his life and THEN the proper understanding occured and increased, but God gave the increase in his understanding, and he went on to write about it.

But Paul did NOT call himself, his will or choice had absolutely nothing to do with his conversion and new understanding. And God does not change, ANY human who understands the proper interpitation of scriptures, they do so ONLY because God imparted it into them. And understanding the truth will surprise you, because its hardly ever what you thought before God intervened.

Do you believe that it's helpful to compare various passages of Scripture to make sure that your interpretations are consistent?

[TyRockwell]

Well yes I believe the bible has an actual message from God, really " Messages", not to be limited to just one theme. Yet I think only he can render it properly understood to the intrested human. The reality is that the understasnding of it is just various to different people. As 2Timothy states, it has to be " Rightly devided", or interpited. This is where humans disagree. There exist a melting pot of interpitation in our human experience, so it falls to God, not the human, to render into the human consciousness the right interpitation. Paul was a devoted Pharisee and just knew he was right, so seriously convinced that he would kill. Then God intervened in his life and THEN the proper understanding occured and increased, but God gave the increase in his understanding, and he went on to write about it.

But Paul didNOT call himself, his will or choice had absolutely nothing to do with his conversion and new understanding. And God does not change, ANY human who understands the proper interpitation of scriptures, they do so ONLY because God imparted it into them. And understanding the truth will surprise you, because its hardly ever what you thought before God intervened.

Peace.

He who asks of God receives. That is, if he seriously wants to know.

He that comes to God must believe that He exists, and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Hebrews 11:6

[mickiel]

Do you believe that it's helpful to compare various passages of Scripture to make sure that your interpretations are consistent?

Yes I do. But if God be for you, even your own interpitations cannot go against you. He'll correct you when your wrong, and that will remain consistant as long as he is with your understanding. He may even allow you to be wrong, for his reasons, for a time. He did that to Peter, but later corrected him, because God is very, VERY, patient. I can't count the times I have been wrong about things for years at a time, only later to be corrected. Sometimes God will keep a person in the dark until the last moment, then understanding will be given. He did Job like that, in 42:3 Job declared, " Therefore I have declared that which I didnot understand, things too wondeful for me which I didnot understand."

I think this is how universal salvation is, an understanding thats just now too wonderful for many believers, that God would actually save all peoples no matter what. Many now just are not able to get to it, its simply to incredible!

But thats how Gods grace really, really is, its incredible.

Peace.

[RBerman]

Yes I do. But if God be for you, even your own interpitations cannot go against you. He'll correct you when your wrong, and that will remain consistant as long as he is with your understanding. He may even allow you to be wrong, for his reasons, for a time. He did that to Peter, but later corrected him, because God is very, VERY, patient. I can't count the times I have been wrong about things for years at a time, only later to be corrected. Sometimes God will keep a person in the dark until the last moment, then understanding will be given. He did Job like that, in 42:3 Job declared, " Therefore I have declared that which I didnot understand, things too wondeful for me which I didnot understand."

I think this is how universal salvation is, an understanding thats just now too wonderful for many believers, that God would actually save all peoples no matter what. Many now just are not able to get to it, its simply to incredible!

But thats how Gods grace really, really is, its incredible.

God's grace is certainly incredible. As you think for me, I think for you also: "May God give him grace to understand this issue better."

[TyRockwell]

God's grace is certainly incredible. As you think for me, I think for you also: "May God give him grace to understand this issue better."

God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. James 4:6

He, God, mocks those who mock, but gives grace to the humble. Proverbs 3:34

Many times God does let people carry on in the error of their ways, even to their eternal harm. If they persist in pride and mockery, they can not hear and see the truth, and turn and be saved.

[mickiel]

God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. James 4:6

He, God, mocks those who mock, but gives grace to the humble. Proverbs 3:34

Many times God does let people carry on in the error of their ways, even to their eternal harm. If they persist in pride and mockery, they can not hear and see the truth, and turn and be saved.

Well I am not into this theme of " Eternal harm", as christians embrace. God is not going to harm humans for eternity. Why should God make a monument of harm for eternity? That requires a sick mind.

God is not sick.

Peace.

[RBerman]

Well I am not into this theme of " Eternal harm", as christians embrace. God is not going to harm humans for eternity. Why should God make a monument of harm for eternity? That requires a sick mind. God is not sick.

Sounds like you have made an external standard to which you hold God, rather than allowing God to set the standard.

[mickiel]

Sounds like you have made an external standard to which you hold God, rather than allowing God to set the standard.

No, I don't allow christian interpitation to set the standard. God is not evil or idiotic. Eternal hell punishment is an insane interpitation, utterly insane in my view. The punishment wouldnot fit the crime. Do you know how long eternity is? A person would be in hell suffering constantly for 999,999 million years times 777,897 billion years times 632,956 trillion years times infinity, and still the suffering would have only begun. Thats INSANE! To believe that God endorses such ignorance is even more insane!

Don't you believe this about God, those who do, simply do not know him.

Peace.