Hell. A Poor Motivation For Conversion?

[mickiel]

As I consider the great Jesus, the Master of Salvation , and what he faces in his calling to be the World Savior, he faces this; the biggest obstacles he faces in his Holy task is sin, unbelief and human rejection, along with satans oppisition and influence on humans. He took care of satan in Matt. 4. He took care of sin on the cross. He took care of unbelief in Romans 3:3. He took care of human rejection by Gods expressed desires that no rejecting human would perish in 1Tim. 4:10 and 2:4. Its all been covered, the debt paied totally.

Its academic, but there is another deadly demic that seeks to limit his Salvation, christian interpitation that harps on humans very harshly and willnot release their place in hell. Its a sinister shame in my view, the real heresey. Some believers in God do not believe in the Salvation of unbelievers. They think Jesus cannot, even worse, willnot save them.

And that disgust me.

Peace.

[Rational Gaze]

At first, I thought Rational Gaze was being a bit harsh to Mickiel, but now i understand.

I haven't actually been that harsh to Mickiel. I've only pointed out that he is ignorant of what scripture says, and occassionally called him a moron, and similar. According to Mickiel's logic, anybody can get into heaven, even if they consciously reject Jesus, and go around deliberately sinning unrepentedly. Those who bow down to false gods and idols will still get in, somehow. Makes me wonder why Jesus bothered sending the disciples, et al. out to preach, ultimately leading to their martyrdom (with the exception of good 'ol John) if everybody gets into heaven. Makes me wonder why Jesus said things such as:
The path to heaven in narrow;
Many will be invited but few will be chosen.

Universalism is false, as it is un-biblical. It is un-biblical because nothing in the Bible affirms it. This makes universalism heresy, which means that it is dangerous. It is dangerous, because it invalidates Jesus' mission, as well as the mission He gave to His disciples and to each and every one of us. It is dangerous, because it endangers people's salvation. People won't bother seeking a relationship with Christ, and so they will not be able to develop a relationship with God. Therefore, they will not receive salvation, and so will not be allowed into heaven. Mickiel maintains that salvation is a free gift, which is true, but then claims that this gift can be received by people who consciouslessly reject said gift, which is a contradiction in terms. Eventually, Mickiel has broken down and said that God has the power to overide our free will, but this is another completely un-biblical claim, and another contradiction in terms. Mindless automatons cannot have a relationship with anybody as they are not persons.The very fact we have minds and make our own choices is the single largest proof of free-will, and disproof of both materialism and pre-destination. Mickiel either has not put much, if any, thought into his views, or is a deceiver.

[Adrift]

Rare? Jesus, Paul et al. frequently used riposte. Jesus wasn't some sort of hippy wimp, he could be hard when he needed to be. It was mostly against the Pharisees, et al., i.e. people not interested in truth, but also his disciples, nd other people.

I never said, nor implied that Jesus was a wimp, but we know that when Jesus used harsh language he had the authority to do so. Read the article I linked, it demonstrates that by reproaching the Pharisees Jesus was asserting his divine authority. When Paul told the Judaizers to effeminate themselves he was reproaching them with the authority he had as an apostle of Christ to those in the body of Christ who were acting as "false apostles". I'm not sure that the same can be said for your or I over mickiel. Calling mickiel a moron isn't going to win him to Christ, nor do I believe it's going to impress onlookers who might be swayed by mickiel's "different gospel". I think the best way to impress onlookers is simply to answer bad doctrine with good and let the light of truth shine through.

[Rational Gaze]

Its all been covered, the debt paid totally.

This is also true, but not proof of universalism.

Its academic,

This is completely false. Universalism is a vile and dangerous heresy that threatens the possibility of unbelievers receiving salvation, by blinding them with nice-sounding just-so fairy tales that are un-biblical and un-true.

but there is another deadly demic that seeks to limit his Salvation, christian interpitation that harps on humans very harshly and willnot release their place in hell. Its a sinister shame in my view, the real heresey.

Another position that is as equally heretical as your own does not lessen the fact that your position is heretical.

Some believers in God do not believe in the Salvation of unbelievers.

Only those who repent and accept Jesus can receive salvation.

They think Jesus cannot, even worse, willnot save them.

Becuase He won't. He may offer them the gift, but if they refuse, then they miss out.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

And that disgust me.

Yes, I already know the correct teachings of scripture disgust you, because you are heretic, who hates the Lord and hates His word. You pay lip-service to the Lord, yet you denounce His teachings and His followers with your mouth, and hate them with your heart.

Peace.

You can save your meaningless utterances. You don't sincerely wish us peace, you hate true believers, for having the courage to correct your heresy. You refuse to learn the ways of the Lord, and your mind is closed to the truth. If you had something meaningful to say, you would have said it by now, instead of repeating the same heresy over again.

[Rational Gaze]

I'm not sure that the same can be said for your or I over mickiel.

A true believer has authority over heretics, imo. If this were a subject we were ignorant on, then yes, you would be right, but since this is a subject that we have knowledge on, then we have the authority to correct those who do not understand. If someone asks for evidence, we supply it. If they try to argue against us, we supply counter-arguments. If people refuse to be corrected and are not open to truth, then we call them out on it. Simple really.

Calling mickiel a moron isn't going to win him to Christ, nor do I believe it's going to impress onlookers who might be swayed by mickiel's "different gospel". I think the best way to impress onlookers is simply to answer bad doctrine with good and let the light of truth shine through.

Which is why I have been countering his heresy with truth. I have supported my position with scriptural support and reasoned argument. Mickiel has ignored all the biblical evidence and reasoned argument I have provided, so therefore, I can conclude he is not interested in truth, therefore I am free to use harsh words against him.

[mickiel]

I argue for the salvation of All, because all have a need of it. All have sinned, this whole world has sinned, thus we need a World Savior who will forgive all that sin. Jesus, the " Sineater", has done just that. His Father God is not a God of " Partiality", meaning he didNOT send his Son to affectively save only a part of humanity, but ALL of them. Yet Christians have become Partial in their view of Salvation. In James 2:4-5;" Have you not made distinctions amoung yourselves and become judges with evil motives? Listen, my beloved bretheren, didnot God choose the poor of this world, to make them rich in faith and be heirs of the Kingdom which he promised to those who Love him?" Much of humanity do not Love God, but God so Loved this world that he GAVE Jesus, and Jesus has the Power and Authority to bring a human to belief in his Father and GIVE them the Love for him in their unbelieving hearts!

Unbelief and rejection of God is something Jesus must deal with to bring about world Salvation, its not something he ignores based on free will. Mercy triumphs over Judgement, James 2:13. Jesus extending Mercy to the whole world will triumph over damnation judgement of that world. Jesus has RECONCILED ALL things to himself, Col. 1:20, that All things includes personal rejection of him, its a miracle! Its astounding Grace that is Pure. John 1:16;" For of his fullness we have ALL received, and GRACE upon GRACE! Unbelievers cannot be exculded from this " ALL receiving Grace."

1John 2:2;" And Jesus himself is the Propitiation for our sins( this our is the believers) AND NOT JUST OURS ONLY, but also of the WHOLE WORLD! Praise God Almighty, that includes unbelievers and rejecting humans! INCREDIBLE grace and Total Forgiveness.

Propitiation means devine forgiveness, devine favor, devine satisfaction of unbelief, Jesus renders ALL this in favor of our Salvation.

Peace.

[justgin]

I never said, nor implied that Jesus was a wimp, but we know that when Jesus used harsh language he had the authority to do so. Read the article I linked, it demonstrates that by reproaching the Pharisees Jesus was asserting his divine authority. When Paul told the Judaizers to effeminate themselves he was reproaching them with the authority he had as an apostle of Christ to those in the body of Christ who were acting as "false apostles". I'm not sure that the same can be said for your or I over mickiel. Calling mickiel a moron isn't going to win him to Christ, nor do I believe it's going to impress onlookers who might be swayed by mickiel's "different gospel". I think the best way to impress onlookers is simply to answer bad doctrine with good and let the light of truth shine through.

I tried the nice approach and it didn't work. Maybe "moron" is a bit harsh, but it's not anywhere near as harsh as God's eternal judgement will be. And, in light of all that's been said so far, do you really think that anything we've said is getting through to Mickiel? As far as onlookers are concerned, i think the best thing to do is not focus on them but to stay faithful to the the message of Christ which is grace and truth.

[mickiel]

Romans 5:17;" For if by the sin of one, death reigned through that one, much more those who receive the abundance of Grace and the GIFT of righteousness will reign in Life THROUGH the one Jesus Christ. Jesus GIVES his grace as a free gift, and no christian doctrine can put a price of ANY kind on it!

Vs. 18;" So then through one sin there resulted condemnation to ALL humans, even so ( meaning " Conversely") through one act of righteousness there RESULTED JUSTIFICATION of Life to ALL humans!" All humans, EVERY last one of them are now justified to live eternally with God, no matter what they have done, no matter what Adam did! I don't care how unfair this seems to christians, the brothers of the prodical son, unbelievers and rejectors of God are now Justified before God through Christ, not through their unbelief.

THROUGH Christ, no one can condemn an unbeliever. Christians are NOT the judges of this world, they are NOT the evangelizers of sinners, they are NOT the means by which unbelievers are now Justified!

Jesus IS!

Peace.

[Adrift]

And, in light of all that's been said so far, do you really think that anything we've said is getting through to Mickiel?

No, I don't think so. We can easily (and have) rebutted every verse mickiel has twisted or taken out of context to fit his different gospel. At this point I think the only productive thing to do (in this thread at least) is to simply brush the dust off and ignore him. Stop feeding the fire. He's not going to change his mind any time soon about this subject, because he's built too much on it. Its very very hard and humbling for someone to reject error and embrace truth when you have so much riding on it. I know from experience. He's been harping universal unification for years now, that's not going to change over the course of one thread. I think the case for correct doctrine has been made well enough that there's nothing else to prove.

[Rational Gaze]

I argue for the salvation of All, because all have a need of it. All have sinned, this whole world has sinned, thus we need a World Savior who will forgive all that sin. Jesus, the " Sineater", has done just that.

I know. All are in need of salvation. Yet there are those who reject this free gift.

His Father God is not a God of " Partiality", meaning he did NOT send his Son to affectively save only a part of humanity, but ALL of them.

Yes, I also know this. Jesus came to die for the sins of all men. But those who choose not to be saved, cannot be saved.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Yet Christians have become Partial in their view of Salvation.

No, they haven't. Salvation is available to all. It's just that not everybody accepts salvation. I have provided countless verses affirming this, all of which you ignore. An act I find very telling, and indicative of your intellectual and moral bankruptcy.

Much of humanity do not Love God, but God so Loved this world that he GAVE Jesus, and Jesus has the Power and Authority to bring a human to belief in his Father and GIVE them the Love for him in their unbelieving hearts!

No, He does not. God can draw men to Him, but it is up to us to become His followers. If we do not accept the gift of salvation, then we shall not receive it.

Unbelief and rejection of God is something Jesus must deal with to bring about world Salvation, its not something he ignores based on free will.

Asserted, but not shown. If human beings do not have free will, then they are not persons, therefore they cannot have a relationship with God. Also, if we do not have free will, then that means God is control of our actions, including when we sin and do evil. So, you are effectively saying, God causes us to be evil. Nice save.

Propitiation means devine forgiveness, devine favor, devine satisfaction of unbelief, Jesus renders ALL this in favor of our Salvation.

I've noticed you've continued in your usual tacic of selectively quoting verses out of context, all of which can be easily countered by a correct understanding of scripture:
James 2:12-17
12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Colossians 1:15-23
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

1 John 2:1-10
1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. 7 Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8 Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.
9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. 10 Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble.

I suggest you spend more time reading the Bible, instead of badmouthing it.

[mickiel]

No, I don't think so. We can easily (and have) rebutted every verse mickiel has twisted or taken out of context to fit his different gospel. At this point I think the only productive thing to do (in this thread at least) is to simply brush the dust off and ignore him. Stop feeding the fire. He's not going to change his mind any time soon about this subject, because he's built too much on it. Its very very hard and humbling for someone to reject error and embrace truth when you have so much riding on it. I know from experience. He's been harping universal unification for years now, that's not going to change over the course of one thread. I think the case for correct doctrine has been made well enough that there's nothing else to prove.

Well I think thats well stated; and with that, I now take my leave of this thread and debate.

I have witnessed enough.

Peace.

[Catholicity]

Actually the discussion of hell is a great conversation starter among some people at least the history behind it universal beliefs etc.... but for some people it just doesn't work I think because the idea of it is considered culturally "stupid"

[Rational Gaze]

I wonder if Mickiel believes Hitler, Stalin, Mao, et al. are "saved".