Natural vs Non-Natural Properties

[seer]

So really there's no difference between perception and misperception, veridical experience and hallucination?

Those are all just "mental images"?

Well sure, are they not the same in that they are mental images? The source may be different, one based in reality and one not...

[Kenny]

I'll be out of town for the next few days with little to no internet access. So, see you all!

[seer]

I'll be out of town for the next few days with little to no internet access. So, see you all!

Oh poop! Just when I was about to wipe the floor with you! ; )

[ENeGMA]

Well sure, are they not the same in that they are mental images?

I don't imagine so.

Hallucinations are caused by chemical imbalances whereas visual sensations are produced by light impinging on eye cells.

Memory of a certain visual scene, say of a sunset, is biologically different from a visual experience of that sunset.

They might all be "mental images" in some sense but they're not the same brain process and, I take, not the same mental process.

The source may be different, one based in reality and one not...

But how could you possibly know the difference?

I give you two pictures, one of a barn another of a cat.

I tell you "one is based in reality and the other isn't" and then leave you to the task of figuring out which is which.

The problem with this should be obvious, but it applies equally to your view.

[seer]

I don't imagine so.

Hallucinations are caused by chemical imbalances whereas visual sensations are produced by light impinging on eye cells.

Memory of a certain visual scene, say of a sunset, is biologically different from a visual experience of that sunset.

They might all be "mental images" in some sense but they're not the same brain process and, I take, not the same mental process.

I'm not sure. A mental image is a mental image. I did my share of trips in the late sixties (I know, that explains it : ) - even there hallucinations play on, though distort, reality. They certaintly didn't seem much different than wild dreams for instance.

But how could you possibly know the difference?

I give you two pictures, one of a barn another of a cat.

I tell you "one is based in reality and the other isn't" and then leave you to the task of figuring out which is which.

The problem with this should be obvious, but it applies equally to your view.

Well that would apply across the board with all our subjective, mental experiences.

[ENeGMA]

I'm not sure. A mental image is a mental image.

I hate to be curt here, but this is just wrong.

Imagining something is not the same thing as seeing it. Recalling a memory is not the same thing as seeing something.

Some hallucinations or dreams can be quite vivid, but they're not the same thing -- that's why we call them hallucinations and dreams.

These are obviously different phenomena.

I did my share of trips in the late sixties (I know, that explains it : ) - even there hallucinations play on, though distort, reality. They certaintly didn't seem much different than wild dreams for instance.

The mere fact that you can now label them as "hallucinations" as opposed to mental images or experiences shows you don't believe these two things to be the same thing.

Well that would apply across the board with all our subjective, mental experiences.

It would IF your view were correct.

But since your view isn't correct, and we can easily tell memories and imaginings apart from veridical experiences, we don't have this skeptical worry.

But yes, for YOUR view it's quite a problem: it destroys all hope of making sense of perception.

I'd say that shows there's a problem with your view if it doesn't let you differentiate experience from hallucination.

[seer]

I hate to be curt here, but this is just wrong.

Imagining something is not the same thing as seeing it. Recalling a memory is not the same thing as seeing something.

Some hallucinations or dreams can be quite vivid, but they're not the same thing -- that's why we call them hallucinations and dreams.

These are obviously different phenomena.



The mere fact that you can now label them as "hallucinations" as opposed to mental images or experiences shows you don't believe these two things to be the same thing.



It would IF your view were correct.

But since your view isn't correct, and we can easily tell memories and imaginings apart from veridical experiences, we don't have this skeptical worry.

But yes, for YOUR view it's quite a problem: it destroys all hope of making sense of perception.

I'd say that shows there's a problem with your view if it doesn't let you differentiate experience from hallucination.

ENeGMA, I'm not sure what the problem is - a mental image is a mental image despite the source. We generally know the difference between hallucinations and memories for instance. And when I close my eyes and imagine a sunset I do "see" something - there is an image. Not much different that the images I find in dreams.

[ENeGMA]

ENeGMA, I'm not sure what the problem is - a mental image is a mental image despite the source.

They're not the same thing.

That's the problem.

We generally know the difference between hallucinations and memories for instance.

That's a point in my favor, not in yours.

And when I close my eyes and imagine a sunset I do "see" something - there is an image. Not much different that the images I find in dreams.

No, you don't "see" anything. You see with your eyes. Anything else is not seeing in anything but a metaphorical sense.

You're trafficking in conceptual confusions here.

[seer]

They're not the same thing.

That's the problem.

Ok one is a mental image and the other is what?

That's a point in my favor, not in yours.

I'm not trying to make a point. This is just a simple discussion...

No, you don't "see" anything. You see with your eyes. Anything else is not seeing in anything but a metaphorical sense.

You're trafficking in conceptual confusions here.

Metaphors as far as I know don't have form or color or depth. My images do.

[ENeGMA]

I think we're being imprecise in our terms here and are consequently talking past each other.

I don't understand what you're trying to say in calling both hallucinations and veridical experiences "mental images".

There are no things in your brain or mind called "images" which you put in front of your "mind's eye" and apprehend them such that hallucinations and veridical experiences are both "images".

Certainly hallucination or imagination FEELS LIKE seeing an image, but it isn't. That's what makes it a hallucination or an imagination.

Tell me, when you have a visual experience of an actual object, say a coffee cup, what is do you see: that object or an image of that object?

[seer]

Tell me, when you have a visual experience of an actual object, say a coffee cup, what is do you see: that object or an image of that object?

You can't close your eyes and picture a cup? Like dreams - you see in your mind - figures, people, shapes, color, etc... Yes these are images - images of objects.

[ENeGMA]

You can't close your eyes and picture a cup? Like dreams - you see in your mind - figures, people, shapes, color, etc... Yes these are images - images of objects.

So you're seeing an image when you close your eyes?

How?

With what? Where is this image? What part of your brain or soul is colored and shaped like this image?

[seer]

So you're seeing an image when you close your eyes?

Yes, don't you? Can't you picture a orange ball for instance?

How?

With what? Where is this image? What part of your brain or soul is colored and shaped like this image?

Who knows, I certainly don't. Don't you have dreams? Where do all those figures, colors, shapes live?

[ENeGMA]

Yes, don't you? Can't you picture a orange ball for instance?

Sure. I can imagine all kinds of things. But that doesn't mean I'm seeing an image when I do that.

In fact, it can't be that: if I were seeing in image then it wouldn't be imagination, would it?

Who knows, I certainly don't. Don't you have dreams? Where do all those figures, colors, shapes live?

Simple: they're not real.

[seer]

Simple: they're not real.

Well of course they are not real - there are no real people running around in my head, no real mountains or cute kittens. But there are real images - with form, color, shape and depth. We really do picture them in our minds.