Muslim myths about Christianity

[bling]

Hi bean farmer,



I agree that an infinite God could not be fully understood. However, keep in mind that while claiming our ignorance and finiteness as limits to us understanding him cuts both ways: while it may result in us humbly accepting his self-disclosure, it can also leave us open to accept something that is false, without the tool of reason and logic to weigh it. For example, Christianity posits a Trinity; what about another religion that says instead of three persons, there are two? Or five? Or an infinite number?

Not only does this leave us open to possibly accept falsehoods, it can also leave us open to accept things that are, in fact, contradictory. Is a teaching a "profound mystery" or just a contradiction? Without using logic and reason, we have no objective tools for telling the difference.



I am sorry for your experience with Muslims. I can say the same about my interactions with atheists (when I was a Christian) and Christians (when I was both an atheist and now a theist.) It's a sad fact that gratuitous insult, hate, deception, etc are quite common in religious discussions. I know that I personally tend to respond to like--when offered gentleness, I am gentle; when offered hate, I respond in hate. I fully acknolwedge that this is not a good state of affairs.

As to the offer that the most reasonable bet is Christianity, I welcome continuing discussion on this. That is one of the main reasons I come to this board, to discuss religion. I have extensively studied Christinaity (having been a Christian for many years), but I am open to the possibility that there's some evidence I haven't yet been presented. As of yet, I still have not been convinced that Christianity's claims are that reasonable, and IMO the evidence points to it being false. Your mileage may vary.



Agreed, completely. But the first part of your post indicates that reason is sometimes given the back seat when disussing the matters of God.



It is reasonable to assume if God is loving he will make his way clear to creation. Assuming the need for "salvation", however, already takes a step towards a particular worldview--it assumes a question that is only attempted to be answered by some religions. Other religions have a completely different orientation; for example, Buddhism holds the problem to not be sin, but suffering (and specifically, the suffering of an endless cycle of death and rebirth). So different religions not only answer the questions differently, they also ask different questions.



One could also assume that there is not a written record, but one in the heart to be discovered. Or the "writing" of creation itself as a revelation of his nature. And as far as the Bible having the fewest errors and least unexplainable contradictions--well, I disagree.

I am in agreement with many things you say. Like: “an infinite God could not be fully understood”, Without using logic and reason, we have no objective tools for telling the difference”, “It is reasonable to assume if God is loving he will make his way clear to creation.”, and “One could also assume that there is not a written record, but one in the heart to be discovered.”
We might be able to philosophically proof if there is an all knowing, all powerful, eternal God; He would have to be the ultimate in goodness or Love, but that is not our issue.
We believe (in agreement) God is the most Loving being there can be along with 98 other recorded attributes and others not listed in the Quran. We might disagree on God being our Father, Shepherd and Servant, so let’s start with what we do agree on.
For God’s “Love” to far surpass all human’s Love (we can compare it to the greatest human loves we know), so it would have to be: selfless, not just emotion it would be a conscious decision (God chooses to Love in spite of other’s actions), unconditional, extended to those that are not deserving, sacrificial, always serving others over self, greater than any love a mother would have for her baby, controlling all other attributes of God, compelling God to do all that He does, and be the most power force in all universe since it would control even God and would be a fitting description of God.
If God is this all Loving being than that “Love” would compel Him to create beings that could Love like He Loves. The problem is it could not be preprogrammed (instinctive) into the being or that would be a robotic type of love and it cannot be forced on the being (Love or be tortured) for that would be unloving on God’s part for the individual and would not be “Love” in the individual. It has to be given and accepted as a free undeserving and unconditional gift, but humans do not like to accept “charity” especially if the Giver of the gift has to make a sacrifice to give.
The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is through accepting God’s forgiveness, since all mature adults have done things that hurt others (sin) and accumulate a burden from these transgressions (conscience [on their heart]). All mature adults seek relieve from this burden, with the only true relieve coming from their creator. They can at some point choose to trust (faith) in the existence of a loving (forgiving) creator and humble themselves enough to accept His forgiveness or they can go on not believe in such a loving creator and seek other options including false religions and/or believes.
Believers have the privilege and honor to be out there helping (presenting good news [gospel]) to the nonbeliever that gets rid of his burden of sin.

[barnasha]

bling, your response (below) is highly rational.

one question: what makes a belief "false"?

I am in agreement with many things you say. Like: “an infinite God could not be fully understood”, Without using logic and reason, we have no objective tools for telling the difference”, “It is reasonable to assume if God is loving he will make his way clear to creation.”, and “One could also assume that there is not a written record, but one in the heart to be discovered.”
We might be able to philosophically proof if there is an all knowing, all powerful, eternal God; He would have to be the ultimate in goodness or Love, but that is not our issue.
We believe (in agreement) God is the most Loving being there can be along with 98 other recorded attributes and others not listed in the Quran. We might disagree on God being our Father, Shepherd and Servant, so let’s start with what we do agree on.
For God’s “Love” to far surpass all human’s Love (we can compare it to the greatest human loves we know), so it would have to be: selfless, not just emotion it would be a conscious decision (God chooses to Love in spite of other’s actions), unconditional, extended to those that are not deserving, sacrificial, always serving others over self, greater than any love a mother would have for her baby, controlling all other attributes of God, compelling God to do all that He does, and be the most power force in all universe since it would control even God and would be a fitting description of God.
If God is this all Loving being than that “Love” would compel Him to create beings that could Love like He Loves. The problem is it could not be preprogrammed (instinctive) into the being or that would be a robotic type of love and it cannot be forced on the being (Love or be tortured) for that would be unloving on God’s part for the individual and would not be “Love” in the individual. It has to be given and accepted as a free undeserving and unconditional gift, but humans do not like to accept “charity” especially if the Giver of the gift has to make a sacrifice to give.
The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is through accepting God’s forgiveness, since all mature adults have done things that hurt others (sin) and accumulate a burden from these transgressions (conscience [on their heart]). All mature adults seek relieve from this burden, with the only true relieve coming from their creator. They can at some point choose to trust (faith) in the existence of a loving (forgiving) creator and humble themselves enough to accept His forgiveness or they can go on not believe in such a loving creator and seek other options including false religions and/or believes.
Believers have the privilege and honor to be out there helping (presenting good news [gospel]) to the nonbeliever that gets rid of his burden of sin.

[bling]

bling, your response (below) is highly rational.

one question: what makes a belief "false"?

God could tell us immediately if our believe was false or true, so I think you are asking how we can determine if a believe is false or true.

If we are trying to determine if some of our or other’s ideas are false or true that takes some work and help.

The Apostle Paul uses excellent logic to explain to the Roman Christians, he had not met, Truth about Christianity (the book of Romans is used in even secular classes on philosophic logic to teach how to use logic).

Whatever the truth is it will be logical and can be expressed that way.

Unfortunately false believes have some degree of “logic”, but the logic is derived from self seeking reasoning. For example: It is logical to assume a selfish ruler would want others to bow down and do his bidding, but it would also be logical to assume a selfless leader would be willing to wash the feet of even his enemies.

The definition and understanding of Godly type Love goes a long way in determining true and false believes.

A true Christian is to be recognized by His true Godly type Love which compels him to do good stuff. If anyone is doing stuff or suggests you do stuff without being motivated by selfless, sacrificial, unconditional Love, than I question that believe.

[beanfarmer]

quite the opposite. Jesus taught the common man how to relate to God - not conflating God with himself. Jesus demonstrated how to pray to God, and prayed alongside his students and his fellow man.

What is your source barnasha? Feelings? Certainly not the Bible. Let's look phil 2 :5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

I have more from isaiah and john if you wish. I agree that "Jesus taught the common man how to relate to God" but he did that by giving up his divinety so he could be the common man that he was.

Bible and Quran both say obey God - is it really that complicated to you guys?

It is when both books say you will go to hell if you don't do what they say. When the New Testament says you have to believe Jesus was divine and came to save you from your sins by dieing in your place and the Qu'ran says if you believe Jesus is God you are going straight to hell, with out passing go or collecting $200,, it is exactly that complicated.

You are betting your life when you do something evil, not when you accept book A or book B.

Jesus said if you look at a woman with lust you have already committed adultery with her in your heart and by that standard we all have done much evil. And what other standard is there but God who will judge the quick and the dead in both books? It's a case of I'm not ok and you're not ok but that's ok because Jesus paid it all so all to him I owe. Sin had left a crimson stain, he washed it white as snow. I'm sorry for lapsing into that hymn but it's tired and I'm getting late.

[barnasha]

What is your source barnasha? Feelings? Certainly not the Bible.

really? why not?

[beanfarmer]

I agree that an infinite God could not be fully understood. However, keep in mind that while claiming our ignorance Agreed, completely. But the first part of your post indicates that reason is sometimes given the back seat when disussing the matters of God.

One could also assume that there is not a written record, but one in the heart to be discovered. Or the "writing" of creation itself as a revelation of his nature. And as far as the Bible having the fewest errors and least unexplainable contradictions--well, I disagree.

Quite the opposite. Reason is the only tool we have to work with. Faith must be reasonable. A friend once told me that she strongly felt that in her case fornicating with a particure guy was ok with God because she had his permission. The other believers there felt strongly that she did not have God's permission. They can not both be right. It is against reason, so one must be wrong. And that is where a written record comes in. Would a loving and wize God not tell us the way to happyness? Would he not make plain the way to him? So you go with the most reasonable, with the best archaeology and the fewist errors and contradictions. The most sociological and emperical facts to back it up like the following.

(Note that none provides absolute proof as modicum of faith is required.) Let's start with experiential which is 1 among many catigories of proof. One rule of the shade tree mechanic is if it works don't fix it or pragmatism as william James put it. There are countless lives that have been changed by Christianity, mine is one.
1st example
About that time someone hired me to take a load of furniture to a city about 130 miles away. I stopped to see a friend I had smoked dope with years before. I knew I shouldn't go there but I figured I would not smoke if they offered. What harm was there in a friendly visit? I bragged about some killer weed we had in my home town. What harm was in talking about it? I was not going to smoke any. When I got back home I noticed his wife's purse in my truck. I would have to go back.

I couldn't go back with out bringing some of the dope I had been bragging about. I told God this would be the last time. I drove to the dealer's house. He had moved. I called a friend and he gave me the phone number. I called and they said they had some. I went there. They were not there. I didn't have any quarters left so I went to a place that was selling Christmas trees to get change. They did not have any change. So I went somewhere else to get change to call the dealer. I called him and he said I was on the wrong side of town. (In Cedar Rapids there can be identical addresses on different sides of town.)

I got back in my truck and started to drive away but my truck wouldn't shift out of first gear. I didn't have money to fix it so I told God if He was doing it, I would not get the weed if he didn't break my truck. It popped into neutral and I could shift to all of the gears.

I later learned that truck was prone to such problems but I usually had to get out and move the linkage by hand to get it to shift. I don't know if that was an incredible string of circumstances or if it was God preventing me from doing something I was too weak to not do. I didn't get the dope. When I got there they were not home so I left the purse where they could find it.

2nd example
While there I was bothered by something an old dope smoking buddy had said. My brother was in the hospital. He had a very bad motorcycle accident. We didn't know if he would live or not. My mom was working days and sitting late at night with him and praying for him. She was running herself ragged and I was getting stoned. When I expressed guilt about it John said that people who are prayed for have a higher recovery rate.

I later thought that had to come from somewhere. Perhaps he was just like me. Feeling guilty every time he got stoned. I started a letter to him but it seemed bunk so I never sent it.

It turned out we were starting another job and we had time for a layover at home, so I called him when we got there. He was not home. Though I didn't know it, he was out getting wasted. He was on Tetra hydro cannabinol, the active ingredient in marijuana. He was at a bar shooting pool. He said he felt the devil was telling him if he forgot about God he would give him anything. Just to prove it he would make him good at pool. Every ball seemed to go where he wanted it to go. He had not "peaked" yet, he was still getting higher. When it should have been leveling off, he was getting much higher. He started to get scared and went home. In bed he started to ask God to forgive him getting stoned, something (unknown to me) he did every night. Then he he thought that was no good because he did that every time and would go out and do the same thing the next day. Meanwhile he was still getting more and more wasted. He thought he felt his heart stop. He prayed that if he woke up in the morning that he would "get right with God."

I don't know if he was really getting higher all that time or if his heart really stopped or the drugs were playing tricks on him. I don't know if a demon was helping him at pool or if it was some combination of being relaxed and dumb luck. Most of all I don't know if it was God intervening in his life or an incredible string of circumstance.

He woke up to a ringing phone. It was me. I beat around the bush afraid that I would embarrass my self. He stopped me and said it was time to "get right with God."

I went I to his house where he told me the whole story. I took him to Deb. We spent the day together. I was afraid that, leaving him with raving Pentecostals, they would screw up his doctrine. My worries were for naught. I didn't figure on the Holy Spirit to guide him.

3rd example
On one trip I handed a tract to a guy and he responded that if the tract was about marijuana that I could forget it. He said "God has given every green herb for man to use." I flippantly replied "Maybe he gave it to us to make rope." He looked stunned for a moment then blurted out "Satan has been deceiving me all these years." He told me that he was a drug dealer. He joined a christian commune later.

4th example
I went through a very dark period. They told me I had depression. But really I was terrified. I was horrified of sleep. I had been through that when I was about 7. I had horrible nightmares that a wolf or tiger was stalking me. I knew it was a dream, but I could not wake up. I was stuck there for 8 hours. Nothing to do but endure it. My mom would try to make me forget it by pantomiming a horse walking up the stairs. She meant well but it had the opposite effect. It let me know that nobody understood. I was in it alone. I would just have to endure it. As an adult it was worse. I knew I was trapped in my body for 8 hours of dreaming. The worst dreams were the mind numbingly boring ones. I had to go somewhere and I didn't have a car, or I was back in high school after graduating from college because I had missed credits. I would discover that I had been missing a class I was supposed to be going to. I was afraid of taking a bath and afraid of not taking one. Most of all, I was afraid of being afraid. I was actually hoping I had a brain tumor because that would mean I was not going nuts. I toyed with jumping in front of a train but knew it was up to God to determine when I was to come to him.


I called Dr. Grounds and he suggested some books. I had one by him that I read for the first time. In it he quoted an old hymn that was about the was about the peace of God. It said to pray for the peace that Peter had and then it said he was crucified. Grounds said God never promised a rose garden free of thorns. I took much comfort in Psalm 139 where it says "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." I indeed felt like I had made my bed in hell. God seemed to be telling me that though I would have to go through suffering, He would go through it with me.


I started taking long walks before I would go to bed. I would pray as I walked. The first part of the walk was dark in more ways than one. At first it felt like my prayers were not getting anywhere. But I kept praying out of desperation more than anything else. By the the midpoint of my walk I started feeling better. By the end I was singing. I sang......
"Just as I am though tossed about,
with many a conflict many a doubt,
fears within and fightings without,
oh lamb of God I come, I come."
and
"Lord of the mind when Legion brings insanity,
you're the Word that restores me once again."

I never felt closer to God as I did at the ends of those walks. They never failed to give me peace. When I got home I went straight to bed. I know that depression has mood swings. But you can't control them by doing something. God knew how much I could take and what I could not.

Experiential or as an old hymn put it "You ask me how I know he lives, he lives within my heart." 2nd is sociological proof. What the Bible says about the nature of man sociology proves . Jeremiah 17;9 says "The heart is decietfull above all things and desperitly wicked, who can know it?" Romans 3;23 says "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Survival of the fittest demands selfishness for the individual first and for genes next. (Yes, I am an intelligent design evolutionist because it is the best theory and I stress, theory that we have. It has many flaws but that would be off of the topic.) The adaptation principle says humans will always want more or the sin of greed. Perhaps that's why solomon said "God has put eternity in the heart of man" so that man alone of all of the animals never thinks he has enough. Like lottery winners after the initial joy of winning wears off they don't think they are all that rich. They want more. It is like God put that desire in us so that we always want the next gadget so we would not be satisfied until we find Him.

An experiment David myers writes about in his book inflated self involving college students where 6 people were given a green chip worth $15 and a white chip that could be redeemed for 30. They could only turn in 1 chip but for each white chip turned in 5 would be subtracted from everyone else. If only 1 turned in a white chip he would get 25 and everyone else would get 10. Fortunatly, for the experimenter, most were greedy.

The 3rd form of proof is what would we expect to happen if the Bible were true? If the Bible is right there is not only God but a conter force that works against him. And that is what we find when we look around us. How many times have you heard Allah's name taken in vain? Even Muslims will type OMG instead of using Allah. Have you ever heard krishna damn it? There is only 2 names the devil wants to defame, Jesus Christ and God. when is the last time you saw christians portrayed positively on tv or movies? Since 1955 I can think of only 5 and one of those, the passion, was called antisemitic because it told the passion as it appeared in the Gospels. I don't recall any Jews geting killed because of it like they said they would. And sin like fornication and homosexuality are portrayed as good just like if there really were a God and devil.

Christians are persicuted all over except in Christian countries where they are accused of hate for saying sin is wrong. For instance, Romans 1 says that homosexuality is a sin caused not by genetics or because you were born that way but because we rebelled against God. Indeed all of the evidence seems to point to learned behavior even the much publishized studies in time magazine that proport to say you were born that way, if you take the time to look at the datta, which few people do, actually prove the opposite. Even the study on the hypothallumous that showed differences between gays and straight men proved nothing because they did not rule out whether behavior caused the change or the fact that the homosexuals died of aids. And for calling it sin Biblical Christians are called homophobes and latent homosexuals and accused of hate for taking the time to cause a little less suffering because they love them enough to try to help them.

The Bible tells us that we love ourselves many places one of which is eph 5; 29 "For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: ". Indeed that is what many studies show. In David myers' book he mentions a survey included with ACT tests that asked how they got along with people. Over a million people did it. Statisticly half of them would be below average but not one rated themselves below average. 80% thought they were in the top 10%.

The 4th form of proof is epistemological. If the atheist is right the following would be true. There are 100 billion galaxies in the universe. Each one contains around 250 million stars. Many of these stars have small bits of matter pointlessly circling them, that are commonly referred to as planets. Around one of the smaller of these stars spins a rather smaller than average, insignificant planet. On this unimportant speck, over hundreds of millions of years, which is an insignificantly short length of time when compared to the age of the universe, totally random chemical reactions brought about complex though meaningless organisms who eventually evolved through totally random mutations into bipedal life forms. These life forms engage in a behavior they call thinking, which involves the exchange of tiny bits of electrical and chemical energy being passed from one single cell to another. None of the tiny bits of energy even realize that the bipedal life form exists. And if they did, they wouldn't care. All of these reactions are simply the byproduct of previous events that were also the results of events before them, beginning initially as a random quantum event that happened so long ago that there is really no point at all in trying to conceive of it. If all this is true we have no reason to believe in reason.

If the Bible is true we live in a created, meaningful and reasonable world governed by logic where science is possible. It's no wonder that science prospered in a Christian world.

[beanfarmer]

really? why not?

Because of the text sited and others like John 3 and 14;10 the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. This shows Jesus gave up his divinety to become fully man depending on the father to do miracles and praying to God when he was upset like in gethsemony. I agree that "Jesus taught the common man how to relate to God" but he did that by giving up his divinity.

[barnasha]

Because of the text sited and others like John 3 and 14;10 the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. This shows Jesus gave up his divinety to become fully man depending on the father to do miracles and praying to God when he was upset like in gethsemony. I agree that "Jesus taught the common man how to relate to God" but he did that by giving up his divinity.

Because of what text cited? That's your interpretation of what one particular line in the bible shows - how does that rule out all the other information (in the canon) which presents Jesus as a human of Judean descent who went to temple, was tempted, ate, drank, and prayed to God?

Regardless, there is plenty of explicit information showing how Jesus was a man and how he prayed to God, right there in the synoptic gospels.

If you say this kind of thing is not in the bible, i don't think you are very familiar with the contents of its books.

[beanfarmer]

Because of what text cited? That's your interpretation of what one particular line in the bible shows - how does that rule out all the other information (in the canon) which presents Jesus as a human of Judean descent who went to temple, was tempted, ate, drank, and prayed to God?

Regardless, there is plenty of explicit information showing how Jesus was a man and how he prayed to God, right there in the synoptic gospels.

If you say this kind of thing is not in the bible, i don't think you are very familiar with the contents of its books.

Php 2 was the text cited.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Don't you see that the very verses you cited support that he gave up his divinety? He was tempted and he prayed doesn't that show that he depended on God and doesn't that attest that Jesus gave up his divinity? Or are you taking the Muslim position that he was not divine?

Are you claiming equality with Jesus by assuming his title "Son of man" by calling yourself bar nasha which is Aramaic for "Son of Man"?

[barnasha]

Php 2 was the text cited.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Don't you see that the very verses you cited support that he gave up his divinety? He was tempted and he prayed doesn't that show that he depended on God and doesn't that attest that Jesus gave up his divinity? Or are you taking the Muslim position that he was not divine?

Are you claiming equality with Jesus by assuming his title "Son of man" by calling yourself bar nasha which is Aramaic for "Son of Man"?

That citation you quoted is not from Jesus... it's some guy talking about Jesus. right?

isn't 2:6 also translated "who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped," ?


anyway... how does this erase the fact that gospel accounts inarguably show jesus as a man (not sure what else he would be, except in the parallel universe of "accepted christian belief")

[beanfarmer]

That citation you quoted is not from Jesus... it's some guy talking about Jesus. right?

How very Islamic of you. That is the thing Muslims say to me when I bring up that text so I will tell you the same thing I tell them. By that standard you also rule out everything in the Qu'ran and Hadiths.

isn't 2:6 also translated "who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped," ?

What is your point? Since you have already ruled it out because Jesus did not say it.

anyway... how does this erase the fact that gospel accounts inarguably show jesus as a man (not sure what else he would be, except in the parallel universe of "accepted christian belief")

How very Islamic of you again sir. I am going to assume you are Muslim so I can get to the point. I will use only what Jesus said to do away with your objection of Jesus did not say it. Let's start with John 3 where the most reasonable explaination is the theological construct of the trinity.

"13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man."

Here we see the son of man decended from heaven. That means he existed before he was born, most likely. Something no human can claim at least in the Bible and that is what we are talking about not Islamic philosophy which has as little to do with the Bible as reincarnation has to do with the Qu'ran.

" 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

Here we have the word monogenes translated only son. Monogenes means
1) single of its kind, only
1a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
In addition it is said that believing in him will save you. You believe in God not a prophet to get saved. Remember it says he not what he taught.

" 18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. "

Here it is said that anyone who doesn't believe in the only son of God is condemmed. Let's sum up.
1. He desended from heaven which means he was alive before he was born.
2. He is the only son of God.
3. Belief in him will save you in eternal life and disbelief will condemn you.

Sounds like God to me.

Let's deal with this first before we move on to more things Jesus said and did.

[barnasha]

How very Islamic of you. That is the thing Muslims say ....


How very Islamic of you again sir. I am going to assume you are Muslim so I can get to the point.

if you can use reason and logic, there is no need for you to devolve into some kind of cultural categorization exercise....

why not address what i say rather than get distracted into talking about "what other people you think I am like"?


are you seriously going to pull out the 'monogenes verse in one line of a book called 'john' provides everything and discounts all the other conflicting information' argument?

even though monogenes doesnt mean 'only son', it means 'unique son' ?

if that's your best argument... this will be over quickly...

[beanfarmer]

are you seriously going to pull out the 'monogenes verse in one line of a book called 'john' provides everything and discounts all the other conflicting information' argument?

even though monogenes doesnt mean 'only son', it means 'unique son' ?

That was the same wrong definition of monogenes I often get from Muslims when I mention this verse so you don't wonder why I think you are Muslim. Why don't you come out of the closet and identify yourself you will not find christians harsh. Here is the full definition.
μονογενης monogenes mon-og-en-ace’

from 3441 and 1096; TDNT-4:737,606; adj

AV-only begotten 6, only 2, only child 1; 9

1) single of its kind, only
1a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
1b) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

Let's ignore the real definition of monogenes and etymology, mono meaning single and gen meaning offspring, but what about my other arguments like Jesus pre-existence or believing in him will save you and not believing will condemn you?

[barnasha]

That was the same wrong definition of monogenes I often get from Muslims when I mention this verse so you don't wonder why I think you are Muslim. Why don't you come out of the closet and identify yourself you will not find christians harsh. Here is the full definition.
μονογενης monogenes mon-og-en-ace’

from 3441 and 1096; TDNT-4:737,606; adj

AV-only begotten 6, only 2, only child 1; 9

1) single of its kind, only
1a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
1b) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

Let's ignore the real definition of monogenes and etymology, mono meaning single and gen meaning offspring, but what about my other arguments like Jesus pre-existence or believing in him will save you and not believing will condemn you?

there is a problem with following everyone else. 99% of the time you might be right, but sometimes everyone else is flatly wrong.

this is one of those cases, look on internet for information on the meaning of the term and how 'only begotten' is a mistranslation of the greek. (search for 'gennao')

are you willing to continue to lie to yourself after you review this information?

if so, i wonder what other lies you tell yourself on other people's behalf?

beside the point, Jesus taught nothing about trinity, so i focus on Jesus's teachings instead of Rome's.

[bling]

Barnasha,
You have said nothing about my post 18?