Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Christian Evangelism isn't a Political Party

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    People in a coma have already attained 'personhood' and are therefore entitled to their individual human rights.
    What is this "attained 'personhood'" and when exactly does it appear? Why exactly is a person entitled to individual human rights there?

    Brain function and self awareness is the criterion to determine the death of a person therefore it should also be the criterion for its beginning.
    No. It is a criterion to determine death of a person. In any case, if scientists have a way to prove or disprove brain activity in infants, and they show brain activity, then logically, you ought to abandon this position. Do you agree?

    fwiw,
    guacamole
    Last edited by guacamole; 03-21-2017, 12:31 PM.
    "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
    Hear my cry, hear my shout,
    Save me, save me"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by guacamole View Post
      Indeed, there is no obligation to defend human life if it is not worth defending. However, you are using an arbitrary, and loosely defined, standard that might as well be something else because there is no evidence, other than the musings of some rogue philosophers, that this is the standard we ought to take.



      And yet you do not extend that same standard to an infant, who will, in all likelihood "wake up"--that is, develop awareness. This is what I mean by arbitrary and loosely defined. Your position is actually one of convenience.



      As I earlier noted, your standard is loose and poorly defined. We know that infants take pleasure and comfort, in some sense, in their mother's voice. He definitely know they experience pain and can associate that paint with certain stimuli that precede or If they do so, it is logical to conclude that they have some ability to form memories, no matter how inchoate they end up being. Toddlers clearly experience pain and pleasure, form memories, but, being as they are in the pre-operational stage of intellectual development, do not have a sense of themselves as beings over time, find things meaningful, engage in abstract thought, etc.
      Heck I would argue that an infant's brain is working at an extreme level of computational power. It is taking in EVERYTHING and sorting and cataloging it, memorizing it, and using that to create language and self guided movement and emotional connections with the world in a very short time. Let's see Starlight or any adult learn an entire language starting from absolutely no language in less than a couple of years. Or learn how to walk and eat and all that from nothing. A baby isn't just sitting there drooling and pooping, it is learning and learning fast. It is conscious and aware - as much as any adult, it just doesn't know how to express itself yet.

      Not that it matters. It is just an excuse to kill a baby.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Heck I would argue that an infant's brain is working at an extreme level of computational power. It is taking in EVERYTHING and sorting and cataloging it, memorizing it, and using that to create language and self guided movement and emotional connections with the world in a very short time. Let's see Starlight or any adult learn an entire language starting from absolutely no language in less than a couple of years. Or learn how to walk and eat and all that from nothing. A baby isn't just sitting there drooling and pooping, it is learning and learning fast. It is conscious and aware - as much as any adult, it just doesn't know how to express itself yet.
        Well put. Post of the day. (I'm going to keep saying this until implemented.)

        Not that it matters. It is just an excuse to kill a baby.
        I was under the impression that Starlight had acknowledged the convenience factor behind all of this.

        fwiw,
        guacamole
        "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
        Hear my cry, hear my shout,
        Save me, save me"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by guacamole View Post
          What is this "attained 'personhood'" and when exactly does it appear? Why exactly is a person entitled to individual human rights there?



          No. It is a criterion to determine death of a person. In any case, if scientists have a way to prove or disprove brain activity in infants, and they show brain activity, then logically, you ought to abandon this position. Do you agree?

          fwiw,
          guacamole
          Babies_and_pain_comparison_figure.jpg

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Not that it matters. It is just an excuse to kill a baby.
            I don't think this is entirely fair.

            Let's say a fine young couple do have a severely deformed baby. Consider the implications of raising that kid - because at that point we aren't talking about a 20 year commitment but a lifetime commitment of constant care where the child never really experiences significant development. We're also talking about eye watering expense and we're talking about a cost that is borne by other children in the home. The parents will have less time and money to help siblings and those siblings will suffer for this choice. The wife and I wanted to throw in the towel on our marriage because of the burden of two healthy kids - it was significant - I cannot imagine if one was severely deformed or retarded. I'm leaving out situations where the couple may have little or no money, parents for which they already must provide care, physical aliments of their own, lack of good examples in their upbringing and dozens of other factors.

            Yes, the morality of it is cut and dried for those of us who hold to the hope of Jesus Christ; however, doing the right thing in this situation comes at a terrible price and categorizing those who simply cannot pay that prices as "they just want to murder a baby" is not fair. I want you to read this again and understand it: The couple may simply not be capable of doing the right thing in this situation - for them it may not be a choice.

            Again, I'm against the killing of even the unborn but making a poor decision on this point is more complicated than how it has been presented.
            Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              Personhood beginning at brain viability and self awareness being the defining moment are both valid positions, whatever your personal opinion.
              Again, that is horrific. You can call it my opinion if you like, but I'm certain if you were to let your friends and family know that you find infanticide a "valid position", none of them would ever look at you the same way again. Or maybe they already view you as a moral monster. I don't know.

              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              Pro-Life Humanists are a tiny minority among humanists, the majority of which don’t agree with this analysis at all. The majority by far of Pro-lifers are religious groups presumably for religious reasons.
              So?

              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              “About three-quarters of white evangelical Protestants (76%) say having an abortion is morally wrong, but just 23% of religiously unaffiliated people agree”.

              http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...bout-abortion/
              Uh, good for them I guess? Interesting that the Pew Research Center decided to compare such disparate groups. All religiously unaffiliated people, with "white Evangelical Protestants". I'd be curious to see how the numbers hold up between all religiously unaffiliated people and, say, brown Hanbali Salafists, or yellow Karma Kagyu, or maybe off-white Ultra-Orthodox Haredi.


              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              You’ve typically and dishonestly segued from aborting insensate fetus’s to “murdering children”, which of course is not abortion.
              No, I haven't segued. It's been the focus of discussion all along. You should know that because you were the one I was talking to. Did you black out and have amnesia between one of your posts?

              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              Christ doesn’t mention abortion at all and all this blather about "suffer little children" etc is irrelevant.
              What are you talking about? It couldn't be MORE relevant.

              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              As a Jew Jesus very likely took the traditional Jewish view that a person’s life began life at parturition.
              You really ought to see a doctor about this amnesia issue you're experiencing. We've been over this a few times already:

              http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...383#post272383

              http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post287369

              You're the dishonest one here Tassman.

              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              Your arrogant assumption that your position is morally superior and the accusation that those who disagree with you are morally weak is judgmentalism grounded in spiritual pride.
              This is such a bizarre statement that's it's hard to even know how to begin to take it. The belief that children ought not to be murdered is absolutely morally superior by just about anyone's reckoning. Like I said, ask your family and friends. Again, I'm not at all concerned that Jesus will find me being self-righteously judgmental or spiritually prideful for taking a stance that he himself took. This is not an insult that can work on me. It just can't. It only serves to make you look all the sillier (not that you needed help).

              Comment


              • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                It already has, a long, long time ago.
                Well, I suppose I'll just have to live with it then, and do my personal best to demonstrate that Christians are distinct from the rest of society in positive ways that others, when they see the corruption found in the society around them, will want to emulate.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                  I don't think this is entirely fair.

                  Let's say a fine young couple do have a severely deformed baby. Consider the implications of raising that kid - because at that point we aren't talking about a 20 year commitment but a lifetime commitment of constant care where the child never really experiences significant development. We're also talking about eye watering expense and we're talking about a cost that is borne by other children in the home. The parents will have less time and money to help siblings and those siblings will suffer for this choice. The wife and I wanted to throw in the towel on our marriage because of the burden of two healthy kids - it was significant - I cannot imagine if one was severely deformed or retarded. I'm leaving out situations where the couple may have little or no money, parents for which they already must provide care, physical aliments of their own, lack of good examples in their upbringing and dozens of other factors.

                  Yes, the morality of it is cut and dried for those of us who hold to the hope of Jesus Christ; however, doing the right thing in this situation comes at a terrible price and categorizing those who simply cannot pay that prices as "they just want to murder a baby" is not fair. I want you to read this again and understand it: The couple may simply not be capable of doing the right thing in this situation - for them it may not be a choice.

                  Again, I'm against the killing of even the unborn but making a poor decision on this point is more complicated than how it has been presented.
                  um yeah. That was not where I was going with my statement.

                  I meant that those who claim that no brain activity or self awareness (yet) means that abortion and infanticide is OK are not really interested in proving that babies in the womb or right after have consciousness or anything like that, they just want an excuse to kill the baby and not feel guilty. They plan on killing it either way, but if they can tell themselves that "oh well it doesn't think like me so it is not a person" then they can feel a little less guilty.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    Well, I suppose I'll just have to live with it then, and do my personal best to demonstrate that Christians are distinct from the rest of society in positive ways that others, when they see the corruption found in the society around them, will want to emulate.
                    The image in your avatar is smoking.
                    How many people have been corrupted by you?

                    I'd cite additional examples, but it is time for my smoke break.
                    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      Uh, good for them I guess? Interesting that the Pew Research Center decided to compare such disparate groups. All religiously unaffiliated people, with "white Evangelical Protestants". I'd be curious to see how the numbers hold up between all religiously unaffiliated people and, say, brown Hanbali Salafists, or yellow Karma Kagyu, or maybe off-white Ultra-Orthodox Haredi.
                      Am I the only person who finds polling groups fixation on "white evangelical Protestants" to be a bit creepy?
                      Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                        The image in your avatar is smoking.
                        How many people have been corrupted by you?

                        I'd cite additional examples, but it is time for my smoke break.
                        He probably dances, too.
                        I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                          He probably dances, too.
                          Monster Mash?
                          Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                            The image in your avatar is smoking.
                            How many people have been corrupted by you?

                            I'd cite additional examples, but it is time for my smoke break.
                            It's a perfectly healthy habit for Frankenstein. He's already dead.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                              It's a perfectly healthy habit for Frankenstein. He's already dead.
                              Is he though? Because I thought the whole point of Frankenstein was that he was NOT dead any more? You know, un-dead.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                                Am I the only person who finds polling groups fixation on "white evangelical Protestants" to be a bit creepy?
                                You will sit in your box and you will like it.
                                "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
                                Hear my cry, hear my shout,
                                Save me, save me"

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                103 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                301 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                109 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                196 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                357 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X