Christian Evangelism isn't a Political Party

[Meh Gerbil]

Abortion or birth control could have dramatically prevented that problem.

I've a friend who has tried for the longest time to adopt an adorable little girl from a very broken home.
Because she works with the family she knows the home situation very well and she knows the truth of what is happening.

The mother just pumped out her 9th child (5 different fathers) and swore in court that she didn't know who is the father.
She knows, but if she tells the court he'll be forced to pay child support and he doesn't work - since the father is 'unknown' the state picks up the bill.
The father will probably pump out another 5 kids with the woman and the court will continue to play stupid.

So before we move onto murdering people how about we start holding people accountable for the babies they make?

[Meh Gerbil]

Without watching the video I feel sorry for that woman. The sexual revolution destroyed her. She's almost certainly incapable of self control (no matter how many contorted empowerment messages feminists give her) and stands no chance in this world. IMO liberals would be several degrees more respectable if they just advocated for sterilizing the chronically poor like taoist does.

Here is how the conversation goes:

"I think we should teach this woman some morals"
"Racist!"

"Uh, okay... well how about forcing her to use birth control?"
"Racist!"

"Pay her to be sterilized?"
"Racist!"

"Okay, how about we keep sending her checks to pump out another 10 doomed babies?"
"Welcome to enlightenment."

[Carrikature]

Is there anything, in your opinion, that can be said to be self-evident?

I exist.

[Carrikature]

There is still no reason given to suspect that infants (including newborn) are not self aware.

There's no reason to expect they are, either. We can use the mirror test (though it has flaws) as a rough estimate of self-recognition, though.

[Meh Gerbil]

There's no reason to expect they are, either. We can use the mirror test (though it has flaws) as a rough estimate of self-recognition, though.

A baby cries when it is hungry.
That is self aware.

[Carrikature]

So before we move onto murdering people how about we start holding people accountable for the babies they make?

I agree. I just don't know how to do that effectively. That's one slippery slope that I'm pretty leery of.

[Carrikature]

A baby cries when it is hungry.
That is self aware.

Or scared or hurt or lonely or wanting attention or...


This definition of self-aware means that literally any animal (or insect!) that can make a noise would be classified as self-aware.

[Meh Gerbil]

Or scared or hurt or lonely or wanting attention or...

The child isn't making a random noise.
The child has detected a personal need and is communicating that need to others.

The fact you used the word 'lonely' and the phrase 'wanting attention' torpedoes your argument.

[Meh Gerbil]

I agree. I just don't know how to do that effectively. That's one slippery slope that I'm pretty leery of.

I'm with you there.
Any attempt to do the right thing would challenge entire empires built upon the backs of the poor.
You'd be met with the most vicious of opposition.

This is why liberalism can destroy a country with impunity - because any attempt at fighting it will ruin your life.

[Carrikature]

The child isn't making a random noise.
The child has detected a personal need and is communicating that need to others.

The fact you used the word 'lonely' and the phrase 'wanting attention' torpedoes your argument.

Not really. There's a single method of communication available; one that's hard-wired into the system for all mammals. A newborn/infant doesn't have to know what the problem is for the method to be triggered, anymore than a fire alarm system has to know what's on fire.

Even if I granted your reasoning, you still have to deal with the fact that this isn't limited to humans. It's not sufficient to consider abortion murder anymore than it's sufficient to consider killing any animal murder. Every line drawn is arbitrary.

[Carrikature]

I'm with you there.
Any attempt to do the right thing would challenge entire empires built upon the backs of the poor.
You'd be met with the most vicious of opposition.

This is why liberalism can destroy a country with impunity - because any attempt at fighting it will ruin your life.

That's not what worries me. Who defines 'good enough' when it comes to parenting? Who gives them the power to define it? There's no win condition here.

[Meh Gerbil]

Not really. There's a single method of communication available; one that's hard-wired into the system for all mammals. A newborn/infant doesn't have to know what the problem is for the method to be triggered, anymore than a fire alarm system has to know what's on fire.

Even if I granted your reasoning, you still have to deal with the fact that this isn't limited to humans. It's not sufficient to consider abortion murder anymore than it's sufficient to consider killing any animal murder. Every line drawn is arbitrary.

I don't see where I have anything with which to deal.
I don't use self-awareness as the factor that determines what is and what is not a murder.

Animals being self-aware is a moot point.

[Meh Gerbil]

That's not what worries me. Who defines 'good enough' when it comes to parenting? Who gives them the power to define it? There's no win condition here.

1: The state already does this through Child Protective Services.
2: I think pumping out 15 kids when you don't have a job is a pretty obvious red flag.

Again, I'm okay with this continuing - a system that behaves in this way simply cannot last.
Nature will correct itself.

[Darth Executor]

1: The state already does this through Child Protective Services.
2: I think pumping out 15 kids when you don't have a job is a pretty obvious red flag.

Again, I'm okay with this continuing - a system that behaves in this way simply cannot last.
Nature will correct itself.

Not true. Much of africa behaves this way because the west keeps feeding it. Nature usually solves this problem with hard population bottle necks created by mass starvation.

[Darth Executor]

That's not what worries me. Who defines 'good enough' when it comes to parenting? Who gives them the power to define it? There's no win condition here.

mandatory IUDs if you have kids you can't afford to upkeep yourself would be a good start.