Christian Evangelism isn't a Political Party

[Adrift]

I exist.

Is that the only thing that you find self-evident?

[Trout]

Is that the only thing that you find self-evident?

Pretty sure he'd have to admit to other minds at this point.

[Meh Gerbil]

Not true. Much of africa behaves this way because the west keeps feeding it. Nature usually solves this problem with hard population bottle necks created by mass starvation.

Right.
The prosperity of the west, brought about by conservative values, is temporarily restraining the effects of nature.
However, liberalism will soon destroy our ability to help.

[Carrikature]

Is that the only thing that you find self-evident?

More or less.

Pretty sure he'd have to admit to other minds at this point.

I do admit to other minds, but I don't find that self-evident. It's more of a functional equivalence thing.

[Carrikature]

I don't see where I have anything with which to deal.
I don't use self-awareness as the factor that determines what is and what is not a murder.

Animals being self-aware is a moot point.

I don't use it that way, either, but that was the context.

1: The state already does this through Child Protective Services.
2: I think pumping out 15 kids when you don't have a job is a pretty obvious red flag.

Again, I'm okay with this continuing - a system that behaves in this way simply cannot last.
Nature will correct itself.

While #1 is true, it's also deeply flawed (and, if anything, underscores my point). We try to do it. We fail horribly. I think trying harder just means failing harder. And #2, while granted, isn't solvable short of mandated sterilization.

[Meh Gerbil]

I do admit to other minds, but I don't find that self-evident. It's more of a functional equivalence thing.

I feel kind of dumb.
I don't even know what this means.

[Meh Gerbil]

I don't use it that way, either, but that was the context.
While #1 is true, it's also deeply flawed (and, if anything, underscores my point). We try to do it. We fail horribly. I think trying harder just means failing harder. And #2, while granted, isn't solvable short of mandated sterilization.

Right.
I share all of your reservations.

So we're going to sail on and pretend the iceberg isn't there.

*cough*

Have you seen any good films lately?
I thought 'Logan' was a stinker.

[Adrift]

More or less.

So the followup question, of course, is why is that not arbitrary? Why does "I exist" get a pass, and is not "one of the easiest spotted red flags for any belief...tantamount to saying there's no actual basis?" You could be, as Starlight seems to think, a computer simulation of some sort, or perhaps, a figment of some other/higher being's imagination.

I do admit to other minds, but I don't find that self-evident.

A very solipsist perspective. You realize, of course, that solipsism isn't a particularly widely held view, yes? Course I guess that wouldn't much matter to a solipsist.

[Adrift]

I feel kind of dumb.
I don't even know what this means.

He views the world as purely subjective. The only thing he's relatively certain about is his own mind. "I think therefore I am." It's only through knowledge of his own mind that he accepts that other minds may exist, not as something that's self-evident, but as something that he can relate to. It's an extreme view that not many folks share.

[Darth Executor]

He views the world as purely subjective. The only thing he's relatively certain about is his own mind. "I think therefore I am." It's only through knowledge of his own mind that he accepts that other minds may exist, not as something that's self-evident, but as something that he can relate to. It's an extreme view that not many folks share.

Well, appeal to the people IS a logical fallacy

[Jedidiah]

Not really. There's a single method of communication available; one that's hard-wired into the system for all mammals. A newborn/infant doesn't have to know what the problem is for the method to be triggered, anymore than a fire alarm system has to know what's on fire.

Even if I granted your reasoning, you still have to deal with the fact that this isn't limited to humans. It's not sufficient to consider abortion murder anymore than it's sufficient to consider killing any animal murder. Every line drawn is arbitrary.

Anyone who has raised or been around babies knows that each one has it's own personality from the beginning. The fact that it takes a while for them to learn how to really communicate does not show evidence that they are not self aware. And I do, indeed, see a level of self awareness in higher animals.

[Adrift]

Well, appeal to the people IS a logical fallacy

It wasn't an appeal. Just stating the facts.

[Tassman]

I cannot think of a social unit more devoid of liberal values than a tribe.
How many Native Americans do you suppose sat around and did absolutely nothing all day while everyone else provided?

Unfortunately, this is not the case.
Liberalism usually takes out the entire society before moving onto a new host.

Your definition of "liberal values" seems to be synonymous with "all things bad". In fact Liberalism is a worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality, which fits very nicely into the altruistic nature of a tribal community. And we were all tribal, as were our gods, until relatively recently in history when we expanded the concept to apply to all people in our global village.

[Sparko]

Abortion or birth control could have dramatically prevented that problem.

Abortion? Yeah because why not take it out on the victims of the bad decisions in the woman's life, her kids instead of her being responsible for her own actions and living with the consequence. You know, the state sterilizing her or murdering her would have solved the problem too. I don't see you advocating for that for some reason.

I do agree that birth control would have helped. But since she already has the 15 kids, they are her responsibility. She is the one who "should pay for" those 15 kids along with the father(s). If the state has to pay for her kids, I think they should take them away from her and give them to good homes.

[Sparko]

The problem with "self-evident" is that personhood is inherently arbitrary.



"Self-evident" is one of the easiest spotted red flags for any belief. It's tantamount to saying there's no actual basis.

Durn, there goes the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. of A.

I hope the Brits will take us back.