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  • #31
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    No. He was assuring the baptists that the state would not interfere with them.
    "Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 to answer a letter from them, asking why he would not proclaim national days of fasting and thanksiving, as had been done by Washington and Adams before him. The letter contains the phrase "wall of separation between church and state," which lead to the short-hand for the Establishment Clause that we use today: "Separation of church and state."

    http://www.constitution.org/tj/sep_church_state.htm

    Not the other way around.
    The only way that religion could interfere with the state would be if religion had special privileges that allowed it to interfere and impose its values on the state. But the Establishment Clause specifically states that there was to be “no law respecting an establishment of religion”. Hence the metaphor of a “wall”!

    Please point out where he says that religion cannot interfere with the state. Or where it says that in the constitution.
    The principle of Separation of Church and State has been cited repeatedly by the U.S. Supreme Court in its interpretation of the Constitution. The SCOTUS has this right. It's role to interpret the Constitution.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
      I'm not sure I understand how anyone thinks we'll get one without the other.
      But we do. It means that the supreme court CAN indeed have the 10 commandments in it. That Congress and the military can have chaplains, and open sessions of congress with prayer. It means that our motto can say "In God we Trust" and we can pledge "one nation under God" - There is nothing to stop religion in the government, just the government from trying to restrict religion in the people or to establish a state church. The whole reason it was even written was to stop something like the Church of England. They wanted the people to be able to worship God how they wanted to, not how the state wanted them to. But they also expected that those in government would be believers and would worship God and they wanted God to lead their new country. Mentions of God are everywhere in the founding father's documents from the Declaration of Independence onward. It hasn't been until after about the mid 20th century that liberals have been on this kick to reinterpret the constitution to mean that there can be no religion in government.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        No. He was assuring the baptists that the state would not interfere with them.
        "Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 to answer a letter from them, asking why he would not proclaim national days of fasting and thanksiving, as had been done by Washington and Adams before him. The letter contains the phrase "wall of separation between church and state," which lead to the short-hand for the Establishment Clause that we use today: "Separation of church and state."

        http://www.constitution.org/tj/sep_church_state.htm

        Not the other way around.
        The only way that religion could interfere with the state would be if religion had special privileges that allowed it to interfere and impose its values on the state. But the Establishment Clause specifically states that there was to be “no law respecting an establishment of religion”. Hence the metaphor of a “wall”!

        Please point out where he says that religion cannot interfere with the state. Or where it says that in the constitution.
        The principle of Separation of Church and State has been cited repeatedly by the U.S. Supreme Court in its interpretation of the Constitution. The SCOTUS has this right. It's role to interpret the Constitution.
        so you got nothing then. As expected.

        PS, The letter from the Danbury Baptists was not about the government proclaiming days of thanksgiving or fasting, neither are mentioned in the letter. You should actually do some research before just posting the first google result you can find that matches what you want it to say.

        Here is the text of the letter to Jefferson:


        The address of the Danbury Baptist Association in the State of Connecticut,
        assembled October 7, 1801.
        To Thomas Jefferson, Esq., President of the United States of America

        Sir,
        Among the many millions in America and Europe who rejoice in your election
        to office, we embrace the first opportunity which we have enjoyed in our collective
        capacity, since your inauguration , to express our great satisfaction in your
        appointment to the Chief Magistracy in the Unite States. And though the mode
        of expression may be less courtly and pompous than what many others clothe
        their addresses with, we beg you, sir, to believe, that none is more sincere.

        Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty: that Religion
        is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals, that no man
        ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions,
        [and] that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than
        to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor. But sir, our constitution
        of government is not specific. Our ancient charter, together with the laws
        made coincident therewith, were adapted as the basis of our government at
        the time of our revolution. And such has been our laws and usages, and such
        still are, [so] that Religion is considered as the first object of Legislation,
        and therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the State)
        we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights. And these favors
        we receive at the expense of such degrading acknowledgments, as are inconsistent
        with the rights of freemen. It is not to be wondered at therefore, if those
        who seek after power and gain, under the pretense of government and Religion,
        should reproach their fellow men, [or] should reproach their Chief Magistrate,
        as an enemy of religion, law, and good order, because he will not, dares not,
        assume the prerogative of Jehovah and make laws to govern the Kingdom of Christ.

        Sir, we are sensible that the President of the United States is not the
        National Legislator and also sensible that the national government cannot
        destroy the laws of each State, but our hopes are strong that the sentiment
        of our beloved President, which have had such genial effect already, like
        the radiant beams of the sun, will shine and prevail through all these States–and
        all the world–until hierarchy and tyranny be destroyed from the earth. Sir,
        when we reflect on your past services, and see a glow of philanthropy and
        goodwill shining forth in a course of more than thirty years, we have reason
        to believe that America’s God has raised you up to fill the Chair of State
        out of that goodwill which he bears to the millions which you preside over.
        May God strengthen you for the arduous task which providence and the voice
        of the people have called you–to sustain and support you and your Administration
        against all the predetermined opposition of those who wish to rise to wealth
        and importance on the poverty and subjection of the people.

        And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last
        to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator.

        Signed in behalf of the Association,

        Neh,h Dodge }
        Eph’m Robbins } The Committee
        Stephen S. Nelson }


        It is solely them being worried that the state could infringe on their religious freedom, not the other way around. And that is what Jefferson answered. That the State cannot interfere or make laws regarding religious freedom. Nothing about not allowing religion to influence government. God was already part of the state, He is the one who gave men rights in the declaration of independence, remember?
        Last edited by Sparko; 03-24-2017, 09:27 AM.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          so you got nothing then. As expected.

          PS, The letter from the Danbury Baptists was not about the government proclaiming days of thanksgiving or fasting, neither are mentioned in the letter. You should actually do some research before just posting the first google result you can find that matches what you want it to say.

          Here is the text of the letter to Jefferson:


          The address of the Danbury Baptist Association in the State of Connecticut,
          assembled October 7, 1801.
          To Thomas Jefferson, Esq., President of the United States of America

          Sir,
          Among the many millions in America and Europe who rejoice in your election
          to office, we embrace the first opportunity which we have enjoyed in our collective
          capacity, since your inauguration , to express our great satisfaction in your
          appointment to the Chief Magistracy in the Unite States. And though the mode
          of expression may be less courtly and pompous than what many others clothe
          their addresses with, we beg you, sir, to believe, that none is more sincere.

          Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty: that Religion
          is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals, that no man
          ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions,
          [and] that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than
          to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor. But sir, our constitution
          of government is not specific. Our ancient charter, together with the laws
          made coincident therewith, were adapted as the basis of our government at
          the time of our revolution. And such has been our laws and usages, and such
          still are, [so] that Religion is considered as the first object of Legislation,
          and therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the State)
          we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights. And these favors
          we receive at the expense of such degrading acknowledgments, as are inconsistent
          with the rights of freemen. It is not to be wondered at therefore, if those
          who seek after power and gain, under the pretense of government and Religion,
          should reproach their fellow men, [or] should reproach their Chief Magistrate,
          as an enemy of religion, law, and good order, because he will not, dares not,
          assume the prerogative of Jehovah and make laws to govern the Kingdom of Christ.

          Sir, we are sensible that the President of the United States is not the
          National Legislator and also sensible that the national government cannot
          destroy the laws of each State, but our hopes are strong that the sentiment
          of our beloved President, which have had such genial effect already, like
          the radiant beams of the sun, will shine and prevail through all these States–and
          all the world–until hierarchy and tyranny be destroyed from the earth. Sir,
          when we reflect on your past services, and see a glow of philanthropy and
          goodwill shining forth in a course of more than thirty years, we have reason
          to believe that America’s God has raised you up to fill the Chair of State
          out of that goodwill which he bears to the millions which you preside over.
          May God strengthen you for the arduous task which providence and the voice
          of the people have called you–to sustain and support you and your Administration
          against all the predetermined opposition of those who wish to rise to wealth
          and importance on the poverty and subjection of the people.

          And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last
          to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator.

          Signed in behalf of the Association,

          Neh,h Dodge }
          Eph’m Robbins } The Committee
          Stephen S. Nelson }


          It is solely them being worried that the state could infringe on their religious freedom, not the other way around. And that is what Jefferson answered. That the State cannot interfere or make laws regarding religious freedom. Nothing about not allowing religion to influence government. God was already part of the state, He is the one who gave men rights in the declaration of independence, remember?
          Sparko you did it again don't you know that you are not to bring facts to the discussion Tass, Starlight et al want to continue to belive thier false narrative about America and the Constitution. so they can continue to say it is ok to trample on the rights of those who's views they detest.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by RumTumTugger View Post
            Sparko you did it again don't you know that you are not to bring facts to the discussion Tass, Starlight et al want to continue to belive thier false narrative about America and the Constitution. so they can continue to say it is ok to trample on the rights of those who's views they detest.
            I find it hilarious that they think personal letters from a president can and should determine what the constitution means. Does that mean if Trump writes me a letter saying that the first amendment means that the government can kill all atheists that is what the constitution means and is now law?

            The only thing that determines what the constitution means is what the constitution says. It is a contract.

            Comment


            • #36
              [QUOTE=Tassman;428060]
              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              "Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 to answer a letter from them, asking why he would not proclaim national days of fasting and thanksiving, as had been done by Washington and Adams before him. The letter contains the phrase "wall of separation between church and state," which lead to the short-hand for the Establishment Clause that we use today: "Separation of church and state."
              Already posted above and quoted. You should try reading the thread before posting.

              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              The only way that religion could interfere with the state would be if religion had special privileges that allowed it to interfere and impose its values on the state. But the Establishment Clause specifically states that there was to be “no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,”. Hence the metaphor of a “wall”!
              You missed part of the quote you seem not to like. I added it back in for you.

              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              The principle of Separation of Church and State has been cited repeatedly by the U.S. Supreme Court in its interpretation of the Constitution. The SCOTUS has this right. It's role to interpret the Constitution.
              That refers to what the activist court has done, not what Jefferson wrote. You keep changing the topic. Don't you like to admit what Jefferson actually wrote and supported?
              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

              Comment


              • #37
                I am glad to find out that a President can change how the entire nation and supreme court should interpret the constitution merely by writing a personal letter. This precedent means that Trump can decide how the constitution should be interpreted and bypass the Judicial branch at any time merely by writing a letter to whomever he chooses. He should write a letter about the 14th amendment, then they would have no choice but to approve his executive order on immigration.

                Right Tassman?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  But we do. It means that the supreme court CAN indeed have the 10 commandments in it. That Congress and the military can have chaplains, and open sessions of congress with prayer. It means that our motto can say "In God we Trust" and we can pledge "one nation under God" - There is nothing to stop religion in the government, just the government from trying to restrict religion in the people or to establish a state church. The whole reason it was even written was to stop something like the Church of England. They wanted the people to be able to worship God how they wanted to, not how the state wanted them to. But they also expected that those in government would be believers and would worship God and they wanted God to lead their new country. Mentions of God are everywhere in the founding father's documents from the Declaration of Independence onward. It hasn't been until after about the mid 20th century that liberals have been on this kick to reinterpret the constitution to mean that there can be no religion in government.
                  Your examples actually prove my point, though. There's clear influence from a single religion in the government, and the result is things like "In God We Trust" even when that's not everyone's religion. These things may not be unconstitutional, but that's well into the realm of letter of the law rather than spirit.

                  Frankly, the DoI doesn't count for much. It's not a legally binding document. And re-interpreting the constitution is part of the game. That's how we can allow interracial marriage, for example.

                  Let's not forget, either, that "In God We Trust" and "Under God" were added in the 1950s. Complaining that it's just a recent liberal kick completely misses where it started. Of course it's only been since the mid-20th century...
                  I'm not here anymore.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                    Your examples actually prove my point, though. There's clear influence from a single religion in the government, and the result is things like "In God We Trust" even when that's not everyone's religion. These things may not be unconstitutional, but that's well into the realm of letter of the law rather than spirit.
                    how does that prove your point? The government is not trying to pass any laws establishing a state religion or trying to stop anyone (even those in that government) from the free exercise thereof. So the wall only goes one way.

                    Frankly, the DoI doesn't count for much. It's not a legally binding document. And re-interpreting the constitution is part of the game. That's how we can allow interracial marriage, for example.
                    Funny the DOI doesn't count, but a personal letter from Jefferson to some baptists does? How does that work?


                    Let's not forget, either, that "In God We Trust" and "Under God" were added in the 1950s. Complaining that it's just a recent liberal kick completely misses where it started. Of course it's only been since the mid-20th century...
                    God has been in the US Government since before there was a US Government. And "In God We Trust" first appeared on coins in 1864.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      how does that prove your point? The government is not trying to pass any laws establishing a state religion or trying to stop anyone (even those in that government) from the free exercise thereof. So the wall only goes one way.
                      Because establishing "In God We Trust" as a national motto counts. Because all of the "we haven't established it but we're clearly following a single religion" is close enough to count. That's what I mean by letter of the law and not spirit of the law, and even the letter is questionable.


                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Funny the DOI doesn't count, but a personal letter from Jefferson to some baptists does? How does that work?
                      You're crossing who you're talking to. I haven't said anything about a letter. There is a difference, however, between stating intent (which the letter is used to support) and stating beliefs (which the DoI uses).


                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      God has been in the US Government since before there was a US Government. And "In God We Trust" first appeared on coins in 1864.
                      That doesn't make it ok. Slavery was allowed by the US Government before there was a US Government, too. That's not a useful metric for anything. The point remains that what you try to pass off as a 'recent kick' has a basis. It's not just people suddenly getting uppity about things.
                      I'm not here anymore.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post



                        That refers to what the activist court has done, not what Jefferson wrote. You keep changing the topic. Don't you like to admit what Jefferson actually wrote and supported?
                        "What Jefferson actually wrote and supported", with reference to the Establishment Clause has been interpreted by the Supreme Court on numerous occasion as I've outlined above. You may not like it and try to dismiss the ruling as invalid one by an "activist court", but you are wrong. The judiciary is the third arm of government and it's role is to interpret the Constitution, whether you personally like its interpretation or not.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          I am glad to find out that a President can change how the entire nation and supreme court should interpret the constitution merely by writing a personal letter. This precedent means that Trump can decide how the constitution should be interpreted and bypass the Judicial branch at any time merely by writing a letter to whomever he chooses. He should write a letter about the 14th amendment, then they would have no choice but to approve his executive order on immigration.

                          Right Tassman?
                          But that's not what happened. The Supreme Court accepted Jefferson's interpretation of the Establishment Clause as a valid interpretation...several times. It may just as easily have not accepted it as valid and disregarded the letter, but it didn't.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            But that's not what happened. The Supreme Court accepted Jefferson's interpretation of the Establishment Clause as a valid interpretation...several times. It may just as easily have not accepted it as valid and disregarded the letter, but it didn't.
                            That is not what happened. The activist Supreme Court changed what the entire government, including the Supreme Court, saw as the meaning of the "Establishment Clause" for the previous history of the United States of America. That is called activism and reinterpretation, not accepting Jefferson's understanding.
                            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                              That is not what happened. The activist Supreme Court changed what the entire government, including the Supreme Court, saw as the meaning of the "Establishment Clause" for the previous history of the United States of America. That is called activism and reinterpretation, not accepting Jefferson's understanding.
                              The “the free exercise of religion” as per the Establishment Clause does NOT mean that religion could interfere with the state. That would make it an “established religion" and the Establishment Clause expressly forbids this.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                The “the free exercise of religion” as per the Establishment Clause does NOT mean that religion could interfere with the state. That would make it an “established religion" and the Establishment Clause expressly forbids this.
                                Learn to read with comprehension. Then learn to respond to what people write instead of what you wished they would write. Establishment of a state religion would have to be done by the state.
                                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                                Comment

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