Vatican to allow Islamic prayers

[robrecht]

I think anyone can answer the question, "Who do you say that I am?"

It isn't entirely a matter of definition - we cannot define God in a comprehensive way - but He has set up a couple of factoids, a couple of sign posts that seem to be essential.
One of those sign posts had His Son nailed to it - He went through a great deal of trouble to communicate His Son so I think we should emphasis that in our analysis.

You can run off into the metaphysical weeds if you want but God went through a great deal of trouble to put His Son right out there where even the most ignorant can understand. If some inbred hillbilly in the Appalachian mountains can 'get it', if a thief next to Christ on the cross can 'get it', then I expect a Muslim theologian can 'get it' as well - or reject it, as the case may be.

So, I'm not exactly sure if I understand your answer to my question, but let's imagine that perhaps you are not questioning whether I am a true Christian or not. Belief in God as beyond our ability to comprehend and define in the classical sense is not running off into metaphysical weeds--it is rather running away from such tares. If anything, the crucifixion is perhaps the most convicing proof of this.

[guacamole]

I'm running off into the metaphysical weeds here...

I'm willing to allow that the muslims worship a demon if, to be logically consistent, we're also willing to allow that aristotle's unmoved mover is a demon, or the deistic divinity of the founding fathers who is invoked in the Declaration of Independence is also a demon. That would at least be logically consistent. Presumably the jehovah of the nearly eponymous witnesses and the god of the mormons is also a demon. Might as well start throwing the heretics on the bonfire as well: Nestorius, Arius, Pelagius, etc.

How right do we have to be before we turn the corner from demon worship into worshipping God with a lot of wrong ideas?

Fwiw,
Wholly Guacamole

[Darth Executor]

I'm running off into the metaphysical weeds here...

I'm willing to allow that the muslims worship a demon if, to be logically consistent, we're also willing to allow that aristotle's unmoved mover is a demon

Does Aristotle's unmoved mover have any attributes that outright contradict God's nature like Muslims deny the divinity of Christ?

[robrecht]

Does Aristotle's unmoved mover have any attributes that outright contradict God's nature like Muslims deny the divinity of Christ?

Yes. Of course. Aristotle's unmoved mover is not even aware of creation, let alone choosing to become incarnate.

[Darth Executor]

Yes. Of course. Aristotle's unmoved mover is not even aware of creation, let alone choosing to become incarnate.

Is it conscious? Otherwise it's not even a god in any sense of the word.

[guacamole]

Is it conscious? Otherwise it's not even a god in any sense of the word.

It's probably closer to pantheism than theism, but Robrecht probably has a better idea about that than I do. Shoot, Zeus is probably closer to the Christian god than Aristotle's "god," even accounting for the "otherness" already implied by God's attributes in Christianity.

fwiw,
guacamole

[robrecht]

Is it conscious? Otherwise it's not even a god in any sense of the word.

Yes, conscions of itself as the only worthy object of its own attention. ἡ νόησις νοήσεως νόησις

[Sparko]

No. I was merely asking if anyone knew what Muslim prayers were used in this ceremony. That led to a brief discussion of monotheism and whether or not God could be defined. Not sure where people are going to take this next.

So if a Hindi prayed "Dear Vishnu, please bless my people and make us prosperous" and a Christian prayed, "Dear Father, please bless my people and make us prosper" you think they would be praying to the same God because they used the same words?

And to your other question, God knows all prayers because he is omniscient. Even those prayed to false gods. He just doesn't listen to them. And since they are FALSE Gods being prayed to, they are not being heard by Vishnu or Zeus or whatever false god is being prayed to either.

[robrecht]

So if a Hindi prayed "Dear Vishnu, please bless my people and make us prosperous" and a Christian prayed, "Dear Father, please bless my people and make us prosper" you think they would be praying to the same God because they used the same words?

And to your other question, God knows all prayers because he is omniscient. Even those prayed to false gods. He just doesn't listen to them. And since they are FALSE Gods being prayed to, they are not being heard by Vishnu or Zeus or whatever false god is being prayed to either.

I think the implication above might have been that Muslims are praying to demons or Satan or something like that.

[Sparko]

Proverbs 28:9 One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination

Jeremiah 11:11-14; Ezekiel 8:15-18 Therefore thus says the Lord: "Behold, I will surely bring calamity on them which they will not be able to escape; and though they cry out to Me, I will not listen to them. Then the cities of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem will go and cry out to the gods to whom they offer incense, but they will not save them at all in the time of their trouble. For according to the number of your cities were your gods, O Judah; and according to the number of the streets of Jerusalem you have set up altars to that shameful thing, altars to burn incense to Baal. So do not pray for this people, or lift up a cry or prayer for them; for I will not hear them in the time that they cry out to Me because of their trouble."

Those who are not saved are unrepentant sinners, no matter how pious they try to look. God can do what he wants, but generally in the bible he doesn't listen to them unless they are on their way to repentance.

I think the implication above might have been that Muslims are praying to demons or Satan or something like that.

I think they are most likely praying to nothing but an imaginary God. They are not deliberately praying to satan. But I think Satan was instrumental in starting Islam. One of his traits is counterfeiting the truth. I think Satan is behind Mormonism too, and most false religions.

[robrecht]

Proverbs 28:9 One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination

Jeremiah 11:11-14; Ezekiel 8:15-18 Therefore thus says the Lord: "Behold, I will surely bring calamity on them which they will not be able to escape; and though they cry out to Me, I will not listen to them. Then the cities of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem will go and cry out to the gods to whom they offer incense, but they will not save them at all in the time of their trouble. For according to the number of your cities were your gods, O Judah; and according to the number of the streets of Jerusalem you have set up altars to that shameful thing, altars to burn incense to Baal. So do not pray for this people, or lift up a cry or prayer for them; for I will not hear them in the time that they cry out to Me because of their trouble."

Those who are not saved are unrepentant sinners, no matter how pious they try to look. God can do what he wants, but generally in the bible he doesn't listen to them unless they are on their way to repentance.

I think they are most likely praying to nothing but an imaginary God. They are not deliberately praying to satan. But I think Satan was instrumental in starting Islam. One of his traits is counterfeiting the truth. I think Satan is behind Mormonism too, and most false religions.

I, of course, agree with your emphasis on repentance, and I agree with you that Muslims are not deliberately praying to satan. They are praying to the one, all mericiful God as they understand him. And I agree with you that God can do whatever he wants, that he can be merciful to whomever he desires to show mercy. And I trust that he does listen to and care about everyone, and everything.

Except for the specific references to idols, which Muslims also reject, your Old Testament citations are, in part, very similar to my quotations from the teachings of Jesus earlier in this thread:

'Why do call me, 'Lord, Lord,' but do not do what I say? ... Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? And in your name we cast out demons! And we did many miracles in your name!' But then I will declare unto them, 'I never knew you; depart from me you workers of lawlessness!'

[Sparko]

I, of course, agree with your emphasis on repentance, and I agree with you that Muslims are not deliberately praying to satan. They are praying to the one, all mericiful God as they understand him. And I agree with you that God can do whatever he wants, that he can be merciful to whomever he desires to show mercy. And I trust that he does listen to and care about everyone, and everything.

Except for the specific references to idols, which Muslims also reject, your Old Testament citations are, in part, very similar to my quotations from the teachings of Jesus earlier in this thread:

'Why do call me, 'Lord, Lord,' but do not do what I say? ... Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? And in your name we cast out demons! And we did many miracles in your name!' But then I will declare unto them, 'I never knew you; depart from me you workers of lawlessness!'

uh that pretty much is Jesus saying "Just because you claim you worshiped God in my name, doesn't make it so." He is saying that they can claim to be his followers and not be. They can be deluded and worshiping a false God. Just because the muslims think they are praying to the real God, doesn't make it so. They are praying to nothing. The God of Islam is nothing. Made up. Sure they say they do not allow idol worship. but their idea of God is as false as an idol.

[Cerebrum123]

uh that pretty much is Jesus saying "Just because you claim you worshiped God in my name, doesn't make it so." He is saying that they can claim to be his followers and not be. They can be deluded and worshiping a false God. Just because the muslims think they are praying to the real God, doesn't make it so. They are praying to nothing. The God of Islam is nothing. Made up. Sure they say they do not allow idol worship. but their idea of God is as false as an idol.

[robrecht]

uh that pretty much is Jesus saying "Just because you claim you worshiped God in my name, doesn't make it so." He is saying that they can claim to be his followers and not be. They can be deluded and worshiping a false God. Just because the muslims think they are praying to the real God, doesn't make it so. They are praying to nothing. The God of Islam is nothing. Made up. Sure they say they do not allow idol worship. but their idea of God is as false as an idol.

I was referring more to God not listening to or answering those who do not do what Jesus says, those who do not do the will of God, those who do acts of lawlessness. Note the similarity to your citation from Proverbs: "One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination." In other words, ones actions are more important than merely calling on God by name. By our actions, we can show whether we truly worship God or whether we place other things above God.

[Sparko]

I was referring more to God not listening to or answering those who do not do what Jesus says, those who do not do the will of God, those who do acts of lawlessness. Note the similarity to your citation from Proverbs: "One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination." In other words, ones actions are more important than merely calling on God by name. By our actions, we can show whether we truly worship God or whether we place other things above God.

ok but I think you have gone off track. This is turning into a rabbit trail.