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Vatican to allow Islamic prayers

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Proverbs 28:9 One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination

    Jeremiah 11:11-14; Ezekiel 8:15-18 Therefore thus says the Lord: "Behold, I will surely bring calamity on them which they will not be able to escape; and though they cry out to Me, I will not listen to them. Then the cities of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem will go and cry out to the gods to whom they offer incense, but they will not save them at all in the time of their trouble. For according to the number of your cities were your gods, O Judah; and according to the number of the streets of Jerusalem you have set up altars to that shameful thing, altars to burn incense to Baal. So do not pray for this people, or lift up a cry or prayer for them; for I will not hear them in the time that they cry out to Me because of their trouble."

    Those who are not saved are unrepentant sinners, no matter how pious they try to look. God can do what he wants, but generally in the bible he doesn't listen to them unless they are on their way to repentance.
    It seems to me that a distinction in these passages for, say, a Hindu, or even a Muslim, is that Proverbs, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel are speaking directly to Hebrews/Israelites. A people who knew the one and true living God, were in covenant with him, and then turned away from him. Somewhere out there there's been a Muslim man or woman (or perhaps a Hindu, or a Buddhist, or a Bantu in deepest Africa) who cried out to God using whatever name they are most familiar with (whether it be Allah or some other name), and pleaded that He make himself known, invoking without realizing Matthew 7:7,8. And God gave that man a dream, or sent a missionary, or something else.
    Last edited by Adrift; 03-22-2017, 10:58 AM.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      It seems to me that a distinction in these passages from, say, a Hindu, or even a Muslim, is that Proverbs, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel are speaking directly to Hebrews/Israelites. A people who knew the one and true living God, were in covenant with him, and then turned away from him. Somewhere out there there's been a Muslim man or woman (or perhaps a Hindu, or a Buddhist, or a Bantu in deepest Africa) who cried out to God using whatever name they are most familiar with (whether it be Allah or some other name), and pleaded that He make himself known, invoking without realizing Matthew 7:7,8. And God gave that man a dream, or sent a missionary, or something else.
      sure. Like I said, God knows every thought every one has. He can answer such a prayer from a heathen. How else could you ever get saved? Even an atheist.

      Different situation than we are discussing.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
        If you're too dumb to even read the post you're replying to get out of my thread.
        If you're too dumb to see the hilarity of my comment you're replying to, shut up.
        Blog: Atheism and the City

        If your whole worldview rests on a particular claim being true, you damn well better have evidence for it. You should have tons of evidence.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by The Thinker View Post
          If you're too dumb to see the hilarity of my comment you're replying to, shut up.
          There's nothing hilarious about repeating a comment I already made and pretending it's somehow witty to point out that the RCC filling up their priesthood with gays produced a lot of gay rapists (which is what most of the scandals were actually about, as they did not usually involve prepubescent children)
          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            ok but I think you have gone off track. This is turning into a rabbit trail.
            In what way do you think I have gone off track? Thread drift?
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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            • #81
              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
              This link is to a Washington Times article from June of 2014. It contains a link to a Breitbart story, but the link is so old it goes to a '404 Not Found' page.

              Has anyone bothered to find the text of the Islamic prayers that were used? Were they nice prayers? Did they honor and glorify God, the creator of the universe? Or were they addressed to Satan or some other evil being?
              Since nobody seemed to know what it was exactly that was being complained about here, I decided to look it up. Here's the full text of the words and prayers of the Pope, Shimon Peres, and Mahmoud Abbas.

              Much more shocking than a Lady Gaga concert! The abomination that causes desolation.

              The pope prayed in his way, let the others pray in theirs, but nobody hyperventilated over the non-double standard. No revolting lowest common denominator ecumenism. No creation of a new religion never before practiced by anyone, no pan-religious vegetable soup-cum-goulash, no one expected to surrender their convictions. No invocations of demons; no worship of Ganesh or idolatry, no suicide cult. Even Bartholomeos, Archbishop of Constantinople and Ecumenical Patriarch, was there.

              Politically charged subtexts in places? Naive hopes for peace or collaboration? Sure. But what is the great harm in respectfully letting a couple of Jewish and Palestinian political leaders express their religious hopes and beliefs in the Vatican gardens?
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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              • #82
                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                Politically charged subtexts in places? Naive hopes for peace or collaboration? Sure. But what is the great harm in respectfully letting a couple of Jewish and Palestinian political leaders express their religious hopes and beliefs in the Vatican gardens?
                Will Muslims let Christians and Jews do the same at Mecca?
                "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                  Will Muslims let Christians and Jews do the same at Mecca?
                  No, but neither is that the standard by which we decide how we should treat others, is it?
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    No, but neither is that the standard by which we decide how we should treat others, is it?
                    At the highest leadership levels it most certainly is. It's simple, basic math that accepting a subservient role in this will result in Muslim preferences dominating Christian ones. Nicholas Nassim Taleb explains why in more detail here, but to make a long story short, if you keep giving ground without getting anything in return you will eventually lose it all.
                    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                      At the highest leadership levels it most certainly is. It's simple, basic math that accepting a subservient role in this will result in Muslim preferences dominating Christian ones. Nicholas Nassim Taleb explains why in more detail here, but to make a long story short, if you keep giving ground without getting anything in return you will eventually lose it all.
                      No, Jesus teaches us to treat others the way we ourselves would like to be treated. Sorry if that does not fit your political beliefs, but it's pretty basic Christian teaching.
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                        No, Jesus teaches us to treat others the way we ourselves would like to be treated. Sorry if that does not fit your political beliefs, but it's pretty basic Christian teaching.
                        That's not the only thing Jesus taught, nor is it even applicable here, you you're barking down not just the wrong tree but the wrong forest. And if i was following a pedophile demon sent by Satan I wouldn't want the Leader Of The One True Religion to tolerate my idolatry in his holy city. It's an absurd statement to make. imagine letting a murderer stab someone repeatedly "because you wouldn't want people to interfere if you were the murderer". For all your many, obvious faults I thought this kind of absurd hyperliteralism was above you.
                        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                          That's not the only thing Jesus taught, nor is it even applicable here, you you're barking down not just the wrong tree but the wrong forest. And if i was following a pedophile demon sent by Satan I wouldn't want the Leader Of The One True Religion to tolerate my idolatry in his holy city. It's an absurd statement to make. imagine letting a murderer stab someone repeatedly "because you wouldn't want people to interfere if you were the murderer". For all your many, obvious faults I thought this kind of absurd hyperliteralism was above you.
                          Nonsense. We're not talking about murder or pedophilia here. Jesus' teaching is for those who are seeking the Kingdom of God.
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                            Nonsense. We're not talking about murder or pedophilia here. Jesus' teaching is for those who are seeking the Kingdom of God.
                            No, we're talking about idolatry, which is arguably worse. Either way you are advocating for the faith of a false prophet in one of Christendom's holiest places. It's pure spiritual cuckoldry and you absurdly invoke Jesus to justify it.
                            "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                            There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                              No, we're talking about idolatry, which is arguably worse. Either way you are advocating for the faith of a false prophet in one of Christendom's holiest places. It's pure spiritual cuckoldry and you absurdly invoke Jesus to justify it.
                              No, I have not advocated for Islam, any false prophets, or anything false. That is merely your mischaracterization.
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                It's not a mischaracterization, if I advocate for the recitation of Klan literature in your living room you'd rightfully assume I'm a Klan advocate. It's silly to claim that allowing Islamic prayer in the Vatican is a Christian imperative and then claim you're not actually advocating for Islam. Of course you are.
                                "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                                There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                                Comment

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