Vatican to allow Islamic prayers

[robrecht]

Yes there is only one actual God, and a lot of false deities, like Allah.

The language peoole speak when praying, eg, when addressing God in Arabic as Allah, does not determine whether or not they worship false gods. And I suspect more than a few Christians have false gods in their lives. 'Why do call me, 'Lord, Lord,' but do not do what I say? ... Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? And in your name we cast out demons! And we did many miracles in your name!' But then I will declare unto them, 'I never knew you; depart from me you workers of lawlessness!'

[Meh Gerbil]

The language peoole speak when praying, eg, when addressing God in Arabic as Allah, does not determine whether or not they worship false gods. And I suspect more than a few Christians have false gods in their lives. 'Why do call me, 'Lord, Lord,' but do not do what I say? ... Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? And in your name we cast out demons! And we did many miracles in your name!' But then I will declare unto them, 'I never knew you; depart from me you workers of lawlessness!'

I think all the True Christians (tm) here would agree with that; however, you have to also realize that Jesus asked His disciples "Who do you say I am?"
Definitions are important and if your definition of God denies The Son you are defining a god that doesn't exist.

[Darth Executor]

What's next, are they going to dissent into immorality and let pedophiles take over their ranks???

If you're too dumb to even read the post you're replying to get out of my thread.

[seer]

The language peoole speak when praying, eg, when addressing God in Arabic as Allah, does not determine whether or not they worship false gods. '

But Muslims are not addressing the god of Scripture - period. They are addressing an idol. They might as well be praying to Baal...

[robrecht]

I think all the True Christians (tm) here would agree with that; however, you have to also realize that Jesus asked His disciples "Who do you say I am?"
Definitions are important and if your definition of God denies The Son you are defining a god that doesn't exist.

What about those of us who do not believe that God can be defined in the classical sense, eg, Thomas Aquinas? We certainly believe in the Trinity but also in the classical doctrine of divine simplicity. Would you say that we are not true Christians because we may not accept your definition of God? I know some theolgians in the Protestant traditions reject divine simplicity. Would some of them make that a necessary and defining characteristic of who is and who is not a true Christian?

[robrecht]

But Muslims are not addressing the god of Scripture - period. They are addressing an idol. They might as well be praying to Baal...

But if a Christian were to say the same words of a prayer that although it happened to be composed by a Muslim was otherwise entirely orthodox in every way, would that Christian thereby become a Muslim in God’s eyes and a heretic and be damned to hell? Even if he did not know that such a beautiful and orthodox prayer happened to be written by a Muslim? Likewise, if a Muslim were to pray the Our Father, and mean it sincerely every single word with his while heart, would that prayer be somehow intercepted by a demon and given as false praise to Satan?

[Zymologist]

But if a Christian were to say the same words of a prayer that although it happened to be composed by a Muslim was otherwise entirely orthodox in every way, would that Christian thereby become a Muslim in God’s eyes and a heretic and be damned to hell? Even if he did not know that such a beautiful and orthodox prayer happened to be written by a Muslim? Likewise, if a Muslim were to pray the Our Father, and mean it sincerely every single word with his while heart, would that prayer be somehow intercepted by a demon and given as false praise to Satan?

Trying to wrap my head around what you're saying in this thread...are you arguing that Muslims and Christians do, in fact, worship the same God, although the Muslims in that case would have an erroneous understanding of Him?

[seer]

But if a Christian were to say the same words of a prayer that although it happened to be composed by a Muslim was otherwise entirely orthodox in every way, would that Christian thereby become a Muslim in God’s eyes and a heretic and be damned to hell? Even if he did not know that such a beautiful and orthodox prayer happened to be written by a Muslim? Likewise, if a Muslim were to pray the Our Father, and mean it sincerely every single word with his while heart, would that prayer be somehow intercepted by a demon and given as false praise to Satan?

You mean the Muslims praying at the Vatican are worshiping Jesus Christ - God in the flesh?

[robrecht]

Trying to wrap my head around what you're saying in this thread...are you arguing that Muslims and Christians do, in fact, worship the same God, although the Muslims in that case would have an erroneous understanding of Him?

No. I was merely asking if anyone knew what Muslim prayers were used in this ceremony. That led to a brief discussion of monotheism and whether or not God could be defined. Not sure where people are going to take this next.

[robrecht]

You mean the Muslims praying at the Vatican are worshiping Jesus Christ - God in the flesh?

No. I asked you a few questions.

[seer]

No. I asked you a few questions.

You can ask all you want. I doubt very much that a Muslim would craft a prayer for the Christian God, so what is your point? If Muslims are praying in the Vatican they are praying to Allah, a false god, not to our God.

[Meh Gerbil]

What about those of us who do not believe that God can be defined in the classical sense, eg, Thomas Aquinas? We certainly believe in the Trinity but also in the classical doctrine of divine simplicity. Would you say that we are not true Christians because we may not accept your definition of God? I know some theolgians in the Protestant traditions reject divine simplicity. Would some of them make that a necessary and defining characteristic of who is and who is not a true Christian?

I think anyone can answer the question, "Who do you say that I am?"

It isn't entirely a matter of definition - we cannot define God in a comprehensive way - but He has set up a couple of factoids, a couple of sign posts that seem to be essential.
One of those sign posts had His Son nailed to it - He went through a great deal of trouble to communicate His Son so I think we should emphasis that in our analysis.

You can run off into the metaphysical weeds if you want but God went through a great deal of trouble to put His Son right out there where even the most ignorant can understand. If some inbred hillbilly in the Appalachian mountains can 'get it', if a thief next to Christ on the cross can 'get it', then I expect a Muslim theologian can 'get it' as well - or reject it, as the case may be.

[seer]

That led to a brief discussion of monotheism and whether or not God could be defined.

Of course He can be defined, if not totally, substantially. And He certainly can self-disclose.

[robrecht]

You can ask all you want. I doubt very much that a Muslim would craft a prayer for the Christian God, so what is your point? If Muslims are praying in the Vatican they are praying to Allah, a false god, not to our God.

Of course I can ask questions; let me know if you ever want to answer any of them. Then we might have a genuine conversation. I've already said what my point is. They are very pointed questions.

[robrecht]

Of course He can be defined, if not totally, substantially. And He certainly can self-disclose.

A definition in the classical sense requires both a genus and a specific difference. I think that's probably more or less what you mean by 'totally, substantially'. If so, then we're in agreement.