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Thread: Vatican to allow Islamic prayers

  1. #91
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    It's not a mischaracterization, if I advocate for the recitation of Klan literature in your living room you'd rightfully assume I'm a Klan advocate. It's silly to claim that allowing Islamic prayer in the Vatican is a Christian imperative and then claim you're not actually advocating for Islam. Of course you are.
    At most I have explained and perhaps defended the pope's invitation to a couple of enemies into his gardens to pray for peace against those who might condemn it without knowing any of the most basic facts or circumstances of the event.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  2. #92
    tWebber Darth Executor's Avatar
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    I guess that's what happens when you make peace an object of idolatry.

  3. #93
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    I guess that's what happens when you make peace an object of idolatry.
    Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

    Beatitude, not idolatry.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  4. #94
    tWebber Darth Executor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

    Beatitude, not idolatry.
    "“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’"

    See, I can quote irrelevant verses that vaguely look like they support my position too.

    Nevermind that nowhere is it implied that people who make peace by enabling idolatry "shall be called the children of God", a notion just as absurd as the last one you tried. That's if I grant that they were making any sort of peace (they weren't, because they weren't fighting each other in the first place). He sure stirred up a lot of previously apathetic people who don't want to see their holy places defiled. That would make him the opposite of a peacemaker, among other things.

  5. #95
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    "“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’"

    See, I can quote irrelevant verses that vaguely look like they support my position too.

    Nevermind that nowhere is it implied that people who make peace by enabling idolatry "shall be called the children of God", a notion just as absurd as the last one you tried. That's if I grant that they were making any sort of peace (they weren't, because they weren't fighting each other in the first place). He sure stirred up a lot of previously apathetic people who don't want to see their holy places defiled. That would make him the opposite of a peacemaker, among other things.
    So what do you think the pope should have done instead? Perhaps he should have grabbed a sword from a Swiss guard and cut of the head of Mahmoud Abbas while Bartholomeos strangled Shimon Peres? And then burned their bodies as a holocaust offering to appease the gods of the crusades in order to make peace between Eastern and Western Christians? You can probably come up with a more dramatic scenario than that.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  6. #96
    tWebber Darth Executor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    So what do you think the pope should have done instead?
    Met on more neutral ground? Or even just stay home and smoke a blunt, it'll do just as much good.

    Perhaps he should have grabbed a sword from a Swiss guard and cut of the head of Mahmoud Abbas while Bartholomeos strangled Shimon Peres? And then burned their bodies as a holocaust offering to appease the gods of the crusades in order to make peace between Eastern and Western Christians? You can probably come up with a more dramatic scenario than that.
    Sounds pretty good to me.

  7. #97
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Met on more neutral ground? Or even just stay home and smoke a blunt, it'll do just as much good.

    Sounds pretty good to me.
    Why meet on neutral ground and give up the home court advantage with the armed Swiss Guard? You're slipping. Besides, he had already visited them both in Israel when he invited them to the Vatican. I'm still wondering why you think the Vatican gardens are one of Christendom's holiest places--must be related to your newly professed faith in the Pope as the Leader of the One True Religion.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  8. #98
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Will Muslims let Christians and Jews do the same at Mecca?
    For reasons of logistics (and other things)--only some Muslims get to pray at the Grand Mosque, even though hajj pilgrimage is an obligation. Those who cannot make it to hajj (once a year) do an "Umrah" (year round) so the Grand Mosque/Kaaba is busy all the time. This means that it would be difficult to allow Non-Muslim "Tourists" to go because of limitations and complexity of logistics. There are more than a billion Muslims after all.....and unlike Vatican-city which is somewhat independent of Italy, Mecca city is in the jurisdiction of Saudi Arabia and they decide who goes and does not...(...they are Wahabi)
    (....Crowd-control and safety are serious issues for the Saudi government to handle and they have spent much on sophisticated technology to handle the massive number of people....unfortunately, there are still "incidents")

    However, The Prophet(pbuh) did allow a delegation of Christians (from present day Yemen) to pray at the Mosque in Medina.
    https://craigconsidinetcd.com/2016/0...nd-toleration/

    here an Australian Anglican Church has prayer space for both Christians and Muslims....
    http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2...muslim-prayers

  9. #99
    tWebber Darth Executor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    Why meet on neutral ground and give up the home court advantage with the armed Swiss Guard?
    Home advantage is meaningless if you're just gonna yap and they're not hanging on a halberd.

    You're slipping. Besides, he had already visited them both in Israel when he invited them to the Vatican. I'm still wondering why you think the Vatican gardens are one of Christendom's holiest places--must be related to your newly professed faith in the Pope as the Leader of the One True Religion.
    If he visited them both in Israel then why did he need to invite them to the vatican, where last I checked there wasn't even any religious conflict. And what the pope does affects us all. The Vatican may be usurped but it still used to be the seat of St Peter and I'd like it back one day.

  10. #100
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Home advantage is meaningless if you're just gonna yap and they're not hanging on a halberd.
    I'm no expert in miltary weapons and strategy, but I suspect the entire Swiss Guard must be at least as valuable as a single halberd. Recall the alternative plan proposed and accepted by you was not to yap but to behead Abbas while Bartholomeos strangles Peres.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    If he visited them both in Israel then why did he need to invite them to the vatican, where last I checked there wasn't even any religious conflict. And what the pope does affects us all. The Vatican may be usurped but it still used to be the seat of St Peter and I'd like it back one day.
    Nobody said he needed to do this, despite your talk of Christian imperative. He did this out of Christian charity and hope, however misguided or ineffective in the short term. The Vatican was considered neutral ground with respect to Peres and Abbas, who were indeed in conflict. And do not confuse the Sancta Sedes with the Vatican. I thought you at least had some pretense of being Eastern Orthodox, right?
    Last edited by robrecht; 03-23-2017 at 08:38 AM.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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