Dirt Poor Robbins - Imagine

[lilpixieofterror]

ST has only asserted that there is evidence so far, she hasn't actually shown any yet. As far as I can see Lilpixie (a science student), has contested this claim. So I would like to see what unfolds.

I have read about experiments where gay men and lesbian women had their brains scanned and the results tended to show that gay men and lesbian women had brain chemistry more like the opposite sex. While this is interesting, you do have to be careful about making conclusions about this because there is still debate about what makes brain chemistry, aka, is it the brain that makes the person or the person that makes the brain?

[robertb]

I have read about experiments where gay men and lesbian women had their brains scanned and the results tended to show that gay men and lesbian women had brain chemistry more like the opposite sex. While this is interesting, you do have to be careful about making conclusions about this because there is still debate about what makes brain chemistry, aka, is it the brain that makes the person or the person that makes the brain?

Ummmm.....what?

[lilpixieofterror]

And you would be correct. Sexuality, as a whole, including what is considered as deviant sexuality seems to be related to chemical conditions in the brain resulting from genetics.

There is still much debate about how much genetics plays in brain chemistry because nobody is quite sure of how much is genetic and how much has to do with enviortment.

[Darth Ovious]

I have read about experiments where gay men and lesbian women had their brains scanned and the results tended to show that gay men and lesbian women had brain chemistry more like the opposite sex. While this is interesting, you do have to be careful about making conclusions about this because there is still debate about what makes brain chemistry, aka, is it the brain that makes the person or the person that makes the brain?

Fair enough. I knew that you contested this but I was just assuming it was true for my argument.

[robertb]

There is still much debate about how much genetics plays in brain chemistry because nobody is quite sure of how much is genetic and how much has to do with enviortment.

True, environmental factors can effect changes in brain chemistry, but the individual basline seems to be genetic.

[lilpixieofterror]

Ummmm.....what?

Let me try this again... there's been brain scans done and it's been noted that gay men tend to have brain chemistry more in line with straight women (and the same is true for lesbian women). The problem with determing that this is a born trait is that there is more than genetics involved in brain chemistry or in personality development. How much of it is nature and how much of it is nurture? Nobody is sure.

[lilpixieofterror]

True, environmental factors can effect changes in brain chemistry, but the individual basline seems to be genetic.

There is no conclusive evidence to conclude one way or another, but I tend to believe that it lies somewhere in the middle, with both nature and nurture contributing to our development.

[robertb]

Let me try this again... there's been brain scans done and it's been noted that gay men tend to have brain chemistry more in line with straight women (and the same is true for lesbian women). The problem with determing that this is a born trait is that there is more than genetics involved in brain chemistry or in personality development. How much of it is nature and how much of it is nurture? Nobody is sure.

Ah, ok. I thought you were saying something else.

[lilpixieofterror]

Fair enough. I knew that you contested this but I was just assuming it was true for my argument.

There has been no evidence found for the existance of a 'gay gene' nor is there any for a 'hetrosexual gene' either. It is true that homosexuality has been found in dolphins (and as I recall) a few species of birds, but that doesn't mean that homosexuality is 'natural' since most animals, do not pratice homosexuality at all and it is humans that pratice it more than any other species.

[lilpixieofterror]

Ah, ok. I thought you were saying something else.

I've heard several theories for why people are homosexuals and I tend to think they all miss the mark. Some have said it has to do with a lack of a male/female role model growing up, but many people grow up with a lack of a male/female role model and they turn out to be hetrosexuals. Some others have said it has to do with abuse as children, but homosexual and hetrosexual's come from all backgrounds. Some also say it's genetic, but there is no evidence that any set of genes would make a person anymore or less prone to homosexual or even hetrosexual behavior. Myself, I think these groups are making human behavior out to be too simple and I have a feeling that the truth maybe a combo of all of these factors or more.

[Darth Ovious]

There has been no evidence found for the existance of a 'gay gene' nor is there any for a 'hetrosexual gene' either. It is true that homosexuality has been found in dolphins (and as I recall) a few species of birds, but that doesn't mean that homosexuality is 'natural' since most animals, do not pratice homosexuality at all and it is humans that pratice it more than any other species.

I remember seeing a Rhino on telly who was trying to have a go at one of his own.

Actually I do think that environment plays a part in it at least. When China adopted the one child policy, for a generation the parents wanted male children so they got rid of any unwanted female children, so they could try for a boy again. This led to a generation of the CHinese population being predominately male and also there was a sharp increase in homosexuality within this generation because of the lack of females around.

[robertb]

I remember seeing a Rhino on telly who was trying to have a go at one of his own.

Actually I do think that environment plays a part in it at least. When China adopted the one child policy, for a generation the parents wanted male children so they got rid of any unwanted female children, so they could try for a boy again. This led to a generation of the CHinese population being predominately male and also there was a sharp increase in homosexuality within this generation because of the lack of females around.

This is from wiki.

Homosexual behavior in animals refers to the documented evidence of homosexual, bisexual and transgender behavior in non-human animals. Such behaviors include sex, courtship, affection, pair bonding, and parenting. A 1999 review by researcher Bruce Bagemihl shows that homosexual behavior has been observed in close to 1500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, and is well documented for 500 of them.[1][2] Animal sexual behavior takes many different forms, even within the same species. The motivations for and implications of these behaviors have yet to be fully understood, since most species have yet to be fully studied.[3] According to Bagemihl, "the animal kingdom [does] it with much greater sexual diversity — including homosexual, bisexual and nonreproductive sex — than the scientific community and society at large have previously been willing to accept."[4] Current research indicates that various forms of same-sex sexual behavior are found throughout the animal kingdom.[5] A new review made in 2009 of existing research showed that same-sex behavior is a nearly universal phenomenon in the animal kingdom, common across species.[6] Homosexuality is best known from social species.

[Oolon Colluphid]

Darth

"AP did say though beforehand that he thought it was a misnomer. I would be interested in seeing what he says."

Me too, but no blame attached if he chooses not to.

"In essence I think this leaves number 1 as not really an argument to say that homosexuality is OK. Instead number 2 is the reason that people who agree that homosexuality is OK should be arguing for."

That's a fair summary. I'd probably agree that "it's genetic and/or natural therefore it's ok" isn't a strong argument. We were talking about natural evil earlier (actually it's probably more accurate to say we were talking about talking about natural evil - is there an echo in here?). Well cancer's genetic but few would conclude that it's therefore 'good'. Perhaps a better example is psychopathology. Some pyschopaths are probably "born with it", but this doesn't make murder ok either. Please note - I'm not equating homosexuality with cancer or psychopathology - I'm saying that something that one is born with isn't necessarily good. However, I'd also say that there is suggestive (but not conclusive) evidence to suggest that deviant behaviour like paedophilia or necrophilia is categorically different from homosexuality in that it may be determined by experience. Those convicted of necrophilia for example generally conform to a particular profile, and have usually been employed in some capacity that brings them into regular contact with the dead.

My defence of homosexuality would be in entirely human terms, along the lines of the 'harm principle'. I would not argue with someone who said homosexuality is a sin, since that is a specifically religious argument, and the scriptures are pretty unambiguous on that issue. I think the only way religious liberals can defend homosexuality would be by acknowledging an element of "human error" in the composition of the scriptures, but this would require them to abandon the idea of the inerrancy of scripture in order to be consistent.

[lilpixieofterror]

I remember seeing a Rhino on telly who was trying to have a go at one of his own.

Actually I do think that environment plays a part in it at least. When China adopted the one child policy, for a generation the parents wanted male children so they got rid of any unwanted female children, so they could try for a boy again. This led to a generation of the CHinese population being predominately male and also there was a sharp increase in homosexuality within this generation because of the lack of females around.

You'll find that problem is prevelent throughout that area of the world, due to the about 75 or greater percentage of men over women around there. It's quite a bit different in the west, since it's closer to being dead even (although there is slightly more women then men in the total population, but I find that has more to do with the fact that men tend to die younger and women are less prone to risking their lives on a regular bases then men are).

[lilpixieofterror]

This is from wiki.

Well, Wiki is part of your problem since I tend to find this:

"gut worms"

since worm species (such as earth worms) are both sexes. There is also a lizard species that is all female that does attempt to have sex, but this actually stimulates both of them to produce eggs. So really, it is not as common as wiki is trying to make it sound.