Announcement

Collapse

Christianity 201 Guidelines

orthodox Christians only.

Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?

This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.

The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

William Borden

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • William Borden

    I was listening to a sermon a little while ago and the preacher highlighted a young man named William Borden. The preacher spoke in glowing terms about Mr. Borden's life -- how he was utterly sold out for Christ and the gospel, how he shunned the family business and gave away his inheritance and riches. The preacher spoke about this young man's tremendous obedience to God that manifested in a life of service to God. Ultimately, Mr. Borden died of spinal meningitis at the age of 25, as he embarked upon evangelism of Muslims in Egypt.

    Now, as I was listening to the details of this young man's life and the sacrifice(s) he made, I couldn't help but think about religious fanaticism and/or religious mania. I think these are genuine psychological conditions that affect certain individual's. I have read various anecdotes in relation to the correlation between hyper religiosity and mental illness, but much work still needs to be done in this area. Naturally, younger individual's seem especially vulnerable. I personally treat claims of "being led by God" and "following the promptings of the Spirit" with a high degree of skepticism. My questions, therefore, are as follows:

    1) Is it possible that Mr. Borden was manifesting symptoms of religious fanaticism that had a mental illness as it's driving force as opposed to the "activity of God"?

    2) What criteria do we utilize in order to differentiate between religious fanaticism/mania and the "Spirit's fire"?
    Last edited by Scrawly; 03-21-2017, 10:54 PM.

  • #2
    PS: Yes, I remember touching on this subject before, but I don't recall reaching any sort of clear answer. Perhaps there isn't one? Please discuss.

    Comment


    • #3
      Another angle to approach this subject from would be to pose the following question: At what point does Christian faith become "toxic" or unhealthy?

      Comment


      • #4
        One would have to get to know someone personally before trying to make such an evaluation. Do they have healthy relationships with others? Are they avoiding the normal developmental challenges of becoming an adult? Such psychological assessments are a important part of vocational discernment for those seeking ordination or religious life, but it is a very fallible process, nonetheless one that should not be rushed or avoided.
        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

        Comment


        • #5
          I would be interested in knowing what the man's theology was. If he were a genuine prophet, it's hard to believe that God would let him die so pointlessly right when he was getting started.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
            One would have to get to know someone personally before trying to make such an evaluation. Do they have healthy relationships with others? Are they avoiding the normal developmental challenges of becoming an adult? Such psychological assessments are a important part of vocational discernment for those seeking ordination or religious life, but it is a very fallible process, nonetheless one that should not be rushed or avoided.
            Would you say that some of the more radical commands of Jesus and the Apostle's could be interpreted at face value by those suffering from mental instability and thereby bypass "normal development"? Do you think that those suffering from varying forms of mental illness can and do cloak their mental illness in religiosity or intense devotion? Do you also think we should place the radical commands of Jesus and his Apostle's in their ancient, primitive context and be wary of applying them in modern contexts?
            Last edited by Scrawly; 03-22-2017, 03:10 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
              I would be interested in knowing what the man's theology was. If he were a genuine prophet, it's hard to believe that God would let him die so pointlessly right when he was getting started.
              I don't think Mr. Borden claimed to be a prophet. I think this was partly a case of a young man with deep convictions that resulted in zealousness for God and his kingdom. I think we need to analyze what fuels the zeal that Mr. Borden and others like him exhibit before uncritically celebrating the lives of these individuals, when many of these cases may in fact be quite tragic.

              Comment


              • #8
                During college the guy spent time trying to 'evangelize' (I still don't know exactly what that meant to him) and rehabilitate the poor and/or obnoxious people in his society. He chose to forego a lucrative career in business (selling milk) and instead became a missionary. He died of an unusual disease before even accomplishing anything as a missionary. Contrary to what you wrote above, elsewhere I have seen that he gave away $1 million in his last will and testament, so it does not appear that he gave all his money away in his lifetime. It's perhaps not the path that I would have preferred, but I don't find anything all that extraordinary or insane about him.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                  During college the guy spent time trying to 'evangelize' (I still don't know exactly what that meant to him) and rehabilitate the poor and/or obnoxious people in his society. He chose to forego a lucrative career in business (selling milk) and instead became a missionary. He died of an unusual disease before even accomplishing anything as a missionary. Contrary to what you wrote above, elsewhere I have seen that he gave away $1 million in his last will and testament, so it does not appear that he gave all his money away in his lifetime. It's perhaps not the path that I would have preferred, but I don't find anything all that extraordinary or insane about him.
                  So would you say that Mr. Borden was basically a typical Christian who really, truly believed the bible and lived his life according to the plain, yet difficult commands of the bible? Commands such as selling all to the poor and following Jesus, such as not storing up our wealth where moth and rust eat it away, such as being like the good Samaritan and opening our doors to rehabilitate the down trodden, such as living for eternity with our eyes set on the unseen and not the seen, etc.? Or do we turn a blind eye to these commands and emphasize verses in the book of proverbs while we dwell in comfort and live like moral hedonists?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? 1John 4:17.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                      Would you say that some of the more radical commands of Jesus and the Apostle's could be interpreted at face value by those suffering from mental instability and thereby bypass "normal development"?
                      If someone is mentally unstable, that needs to be addressed, in addition to whatever normal developmental issues that need to be addressed

                      Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                      Do you think that those suffering from varying forms of mental illness can and do cloak their mental illness in religiosity or intense devotion?
                      I think that can happens sometimes. Religious life, in the traditional Catholic sense, ie, communities of priests, nuns, or brothers, can also be attractive to some relatively immature people (not mentally ill) as a way of achieving an instant, idealized identity rather than growing up to adulthood in the normal way of getting a job, dating, normal relationships, etc.

                      Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                      Do you also think we should place the radical commands of Jesus and his Apostle's in their ancient, primitive context and be wary of applying them in modern contexts?
                      Not necessarily. I think there is still a need for the witness and ministry of Christian communities that practice the evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity, and obedience. As long as the community is stable and contributing to the life and ministry of the the larger church and they take care to welcome mature and healthy people who feel called to this life, of course. It takes many years to fully join such a religious order, which allows plenty of time for mutual discernment by the community and the individual and growth in spiritual and psychological health. One can only renounce 'the world' with the freedom and love that comes with spiritual maturity, not as a means of escape, or an easy way out of difficulties and struggles.
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Scrawly
                        Commands such as selling all to the poor and following Jesus, such as not storing up our wealth where moth and rust eat it away, such as being like the good Samaritan and opening our doors to rehabilitate the down trodden, such as living for eternity with our eyes set on the unseen and not the seen, etc.? Or do we turn a blind eye to these commands and emphasize verses in the book of proverbs while we dwell in comfort and live like moral hedonists?
                        1. "Selling all to the poor" was not a command of Jesus.
                        2. As I already said, Borden didn't do that, anyway.
                        3. Not storing up our wealth where moths eat is more advice than a command.
                        4. Being like the Good Samaritan is indeed a command, but it is a command to love to those that you come across in the way that you expect to be treated, not to go across the world looking for people to help.

                        The guy simply wanted to become a missionary. It happens all the time. Theoretically God will reward missionaries more generously in heaven, but only if they actually do a thorough job of it. If you take a financially rewarding job as a spiritual worker and don't follow through with the accompanying obligation, then "woe" unto you. (1 Corinthians 9:16; James 3:1). God doesn't command everyone to do those types of things, but he rewards the people who do.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                          PS: Yes, I remember touching on this subject before, but I don't recall reaching any sort of clear answer. Perhaps there isn't one? Please discuss.
                          I vote there is no clear answer. If we had a living subject in front of us, everyone would have a different opinion.
                          "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                          "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                            PS: Yes, I remember touching on this subject before, but I don't recall reaching any sort of clear answer. Perhaps there isn't one? Please discuss.
                            I think how you view this depends on whether or not you think God exists.

                            If you don't believe in God, this would look like religious mania. If you believe in God, this would look like deep devotion. If you're sitting on the fence, you're confused of what to make of him.

                            This is like finding evidence of God's existence. If you want believe God exists, you'll find the evidence. If you don't want to believe, there is no evidence.

                            So to answer the question in the OP, the criteria depends on the viewer and what they are looking for.
                            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                              I think how you view this depends on whether or not you think God exists.

                              If you don't believe in God, this would look like religious mania. If you believe in God, this would look like deep devotion. If you're sitting on the fence, you're confused of what to make of him.

                              This is like finding evidence of God's existence. If you want believe God exists, you'll find the evidence. If you don't want to believe, there is no evidence.

                              So to answer the question in the OP, the criteria depends on the viewer and what they are looking for.
                              Thanks for your opinion, TM. Although, I think it's important, when investigating a matter, to make a sharp distinction between what we want to be true and what is in fact true. Or conversely, what we do not want to be true, yet what is true regardless. In our pursuit for truth we ought not let our desires override proper examination of the evidence.

                              In analyzing Mr. Borden's story I came across this interesting piece of information: "..the fact that what Borden is perhaps most known for—the inspirational quote that he is reputed to have written into his personal Bible, “No reserves. No Retreats. No Regrets”—has not been found by historians or biographers...is the central anecdote of Borden’s life a case of hagiography?"(i)

                              So, can we really know for certain that Mr. Borden displayed such heroic conviction, even in his dying moments? Or was the reality on his deathbed much less idealistic and far more human? I think we need to be more comfortable, in such cases, with saying "I don't know, but I think God does".

                              In regards to the question of what fueled Mr. Borden's life? I am happy to say that his faith motivated, sustained, and energized him to achieve greatness and lasting impact despite his short time on earth. Was the risen Christ empowering him and directing his life?...I hope so.

                              Source: (i): http://www.christianitytoday.com/his...am-borden.html

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by Thoughtful Monk, 03-15-2024, 06:19 PM
                              35 responses
                              166 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Cow Poke  
                              Started by KingsGambit, 03-15-2024, 02:12 PM
                              4 responses
                              49 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Thoughtful Monk  
                              Started by Chaotic Void, 03-08-2024, 07:36 AM
                              10 responses
                              119 views
                              1 like
                              Last Post mikewhitney  
                              Started by Cow Poke, 02-29-2024, 07:55 AM
                              14 responses
                              71 views
                              3 likes
                              Last Post Cow Poke  
                              Started by Cow Poke, 02-28-2024, 11:56 AM
                              13 responses
                              59 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Cow Poke  
                              Working...
                              X