Who would add to the word of God?

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

Proverbs 6....
16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Throughout the ages various people have sought to expand this list. They say in essence "yea eight , uhh no make that nine, er uh let's make it ten". How long has your list become? Surely the original seven are the word of God.

Blessings to all

[RBerman]

Proverbs 6....
16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Throughout the ages various people have sought to expand this list. They say in essence "yea eight , uhh no make that nine, er uh let's make it ten". How long has your list become? Surely the original seven are the word of God.

Are you saying that this list of seven things is intended to be the comprehensive list of things God hates? Or are you just cueing off of the "six, yes, seven" language to raise the general point that we shouldn't add things to God's word?

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

Are you saying that this list of seven things is intended to be the comprehensive list of things God hates? Or are you just cueing off of the "six, yes, seven" language to raise the general point that we shouldn't add things to God's word?

That is certainly an interesting question. The passage does not seem to say "there are only seven" but why then does it not list more? Placed in the context of what precedes and follows it those verses are instructive on how to both live and how to view what a person faces in the actions and words of others. When I encounter a person who is "instructing others" on the correct interpretation of one Biblical passage or another I reflect on the last 4 of the abominations listed in proverbs 6:18-19. If the "lesson" the person is foisting on others seems to fall into one of those 4 abominations then perhaps the speaker or writer is in error in their Scriptural interpretation. I certainly can not know all that is in the heart of one giving a lesson yet some "lessons clearly fail the test of Proverbs 6:18-19. I know that does not directly provide you a yes/no answer. Would you agree, however, that these 7 abominations are valuable in reflecting on what we meet in the "teaching attempts" of speakers and writers?

[RBerman]

That is certainly an interesting question. The passage does not seem to say "there are only seven" but why then does it not list more? Placed in the context of what precedes and follows it those verses are instructive on how to both live and how to view what a person faces in the actions and words of others. When I encounter a person who is "instructing others" on the correct interpretation of one Biblical passage or another I reflect on the last 4 of the abominations listed in proverbs 6:18-19. If the "lesson" the person is foisting on others seems to fall into one of those 4 abominations then perhaps the speaker or writer is in error in their Scriptural interpretation. I certainly can not know all that is in the heart of one giving a lesson yet some "lessons clearly fail the test of Proverbs 6:18-19. I know that does not directly provide you a yes/no answer. Would you agree, however, that these 7 abominations are valuable in reflecting on what we meet in the "teaching attempts" of speakers and writers?

Why does it not list more? Why should it? The Bible contains numerous other lists of things God commands us not to do. None of the lists are intended to be detailed and comprehensive. I agree that those seven examples of sin are valuable.

[Hamster]

They seem to be pretty cardinal sins. Having a hard time thinking of a sin that could not be described as one of those things

[RBerman]

They seem to be pretty cardinal sins. Having a hard time thinking of a sin that could not be described as one of those things

"A heart that devises wicked imaginations" covers all sin already, but it's not specific enough to be helpful in determining whether some particular thing is sin or not. What counts as mischief? What makes blood "innocent" vs guilty? And so on. We need more than just this text to answer those questions.

[Jedidiah]

It seems that you are making the common mistake of equating sin with performing actions on some forbidden list. Any sort of list has to be a list of examples, or to be generic enough to cover every aspect of sin.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

It seems that you are making the common mistake of equating sin with performing actions on some forbidden list. Any sort of list has to be a list of examples, or to be generic enough to cover every aspect of sin.

Who said anything about sin? The passage doesn't use the word sin. It actually uses the word hate which I find interesting because it says rather directly that God can hate. Then it uses the word abomination. Are you equating an abomination with sin? Are you therefore saying all sin is an abomination? Please understand that I am not criticizing you but simply seeking to understand what you are saying and then where that might lead.

Blessings

[jo7241974]

Who said anything about sin? The passage doesn't use the word sin. It actually uses the word hate which I find interesting because it says rather directly that God can hate. Then it uses the word abomination. Are you equating an abomination with sin? Are you therefore saying all sin is an abomination? Please understand that I am not criticizing you but simply seeking to understand what you are saying and then where that might lead.

Blessings

Hi Eeset,

As always, interpretation is the first difficulty we face when dealing with scripture. So, rather than trying to come to some type of "group" agreement on what the words mean, I will try to state my observations and apply them to me. These verses teach me what NOT to do to others. If I do them, do they become a committed sin? Though they are not presented as "sin", I would feel I had done something wrong if I manifested that behavior toward another. I can also commit sin without involving others. I use the word "sin" as being something that is not "good" according to what I know and understand at the time I do something.

This list, however, is things God hates! That is a pretty powerful emotion - certainly one I do NOT want to offend God by doing. NOT doing those things are qualities which Jesus exemplified. They also seem to be things that can slow my progress and will effect others; this, then, would cause me to break the second greatest commandment.

In following Christ, and in following the promptings of the Holy Spirit, I think I discover additional things I personally add to the list; but they are only meant for me due to the place I am at in my personal journey at any given time. They are also very much related to what is already on the list...they merely become more detailed and more and more discreet, as though by "degrees", as I continue my journey.

I know that I don't like it when others do those things whereby I am drawn into the influence of those actions. So, I could even say that this list is reflective of the "golden rule".

"Interpretation" is included in this list by way of being in danger of causing discord when another's interpretation is different and the freedom of choice is taken away be virtue of the concept that you MUST accept another's interpretation as being the "correct" one. Whereas I think it is okay to discuss differences, one person should NEVER force their own interpretation upon another; especially when the person doing the forcing then judges the one who does not agree with him. Herein lies the problems seen with mankind. Sadly, in Christianity, herein lies the possibilities of apostasy, the Reformation, burnings at the stake, Atheism, etc. Hmmm, I think the precepts of man would NOT be such a problem if we would just pay attention to this list. "Orthodoxy" would not have been born if man had not added to the word of God. Oh my, there is a LOT to your OP, Eeset.

Let me try to re-focus quickly. "Who would add to the word of God?" We should leave that in God's hands! Thank heavens the Holy Spirit guides us each personally and individually, if we let Him. He is serving God! Whatever the Holy Spirit reveals to us is what we need to know at the time we receive it. If the world needs to hear from God, He will send teachers and prophets to do so.

God bless,

jo

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

I know that I don't like it when others do those things whereby I am drawn into the influence of those actions. So, I could even say that this list is reflective of the "golden rule".

Yes, it would align well.

Humor me for a moment and let's take the first thing in this passage. "A proud look". Not a day goes by that I do not encounter someone who "self exalts". I would expect you encounter some too. In fact I would say that no one escapes that ego feeding compulsion to assert superiority in at least some way over others. I can certainly plead guilty and it is challenging to understand that no personal attribute, knowledge or accomplishment sets me in any way above others. Each of us excels in some way but we cross a dangerous threshold when our internal perception waltzes from humility towards pride. I think Jesus put it nicely when he said "he who would be greatest is servant to all" (paraphrase).

Blessings. :roses:

[jo7241974]

Yes, it would align well.

Humor me for a moment and let's take the first thing in this passage. "A proud look". Not a day goes by that I do not encounter someone who "self exalts". I would expect you encounter some too. In fact I would say that no one escapes that ego feeding compulsion to assert superiority in at least some way over others. I can certainly plead guilty and it is challenging to understand that no personal attribute, knowledge or accomplishment sets me in any way above others. Each of us excels in some way but we cross a dangerous threshold when our internal perception waltzes from humility towards pride. I think Jesus put it nicely when he said "he who would be greatest is servant to all" (paraphrase).

Blessings. :roses:

Hi Eeset,

I think that the "proud look" is something that can harm us (and I include myself here) in an apparent way. Whereas some of the other things mentioned can be "disguised" as doing something good, the doer of the proud look is visible. Our egos are manifested through a proud look. It is okay to be satisfied with a personal accomplishment; and surely we encourage children who are doing well or who have accomplished a task as being a good thing. It is when we hold ourselves up above others where this can become dangerous.

Additionally, when I see the proud look in others when being used in an egotistical way, I become suspicious of their intentions. It makes me doubtful of any good they may be claiming they are trying to accomplish.

Yes, "He who would be greatest is servant of all". Indeed, the "wise" shall be made fools. Those who proclaim their wisdom and their scholarly achievements in religious matters sadden me. No quantity of man's knowledge can replace the personal knowledge we receive through the Holy Spirit.

God bless,

jo

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

And next....hands that shed innocent blood.

Sounds simple enough doesn't it? Yet Paul by his own admission did just that. And what are we to make of the tens of thousands of civilians slain in the Iraqi war? Or, for that matter what about the 4,000 deaths each month on the highways in this country? And let's bring it full circle and discuss a church which rejects some particular lifestyle only to have the blood of suicides on its hands. Oh sure it was the fault of the person who took their own life but what despair led them there?

When Jesus spoke of adultery he shifted the perception from the act to the mind. Is it not the same with "innocent blood"? Humans and human actions cause death. If the death resulted from human judgment then we are back to the basic admonition that humans should not judge others. Tough standard.

[jo7241974]

And next....hands that shed innocent blood.

Sounds simple enough doesn't it? Yet Paul by his own admission did just that. And what are we to make of the tens of thousands of civilians slain in the Iraqi war? Or, for that matter what about the 4,000 deaths each month on the highways in this country? And let's bring it full circle and discuss a church which rejects some particular lifestyle only to have the blood of suicides on its hands. Oh sure it was the fault of the person who took their own life but what despair led them there?

When Jesus spoke of adultery he shifted the perception from the act to the mind. Is it not the same with "innocent blood"? Humans and human actions cause death. If the death resulted from human judgment then we are back to the basic admonition that humans should not judge others. Tough standard.

This is a tough one. Especially where there are "unintended" consequences. To me it is horrible enough that innocent lives are lost through war, drunk drivers, ignorance, accident. Man tries to deal with this by labeling death - act of war, first and second degree murder, manslaughter, etc...

God seems to approve of death - though usually in acts of war. He does not seem to step in and prevent innocent death - in fact it is Jesus' innocent blood which is used to save us. What of all of those who were labeled "heretics" and lost their lives? What of those lost in Christian wars.

What I can do is study scripture and try to determine what I can. David shed the innocent blood of Uriah. It is apparent in the Bible that David loved Jesus. What is his fate? I can only speculate and I can add to my speculation what has been revealed about David to the LDS Church. We believe that the kingdom which had originally been set aside for David has been allotted to someone else as a result of what he did. He is also awaiting resurrection by spending his time in Hades in order to pay his debt back to Jesus. He will NOT be sent into outer darkness for eternity; but he is also not going to receive what he might have received if he had NOT taken innocent blood.

What we believe is this - the punishment for shedding innocent blood is based on your personal knowledge of what has been revealed to you by the Holy Spirit prior to committing such a sin. Since only God can know for sure what a person's knowledge and understanding is, God will be the one to judge. We do believe that once you are truly converted and the Holy Spirit has opened the kingdom of God to you, that shedding innocent blood is the same as committing the unforgivable sin - which is denying the Holy Spirit's witness to you that Jesus IS the Christ. For once you accept Jesus as your Savior, you have accepted forgiveness of your sins through the payment for your sin through His innocent blood. Once you have this sure knowledge (and this degree of understanding is what I simply do not know the answer to), to then go out and shed innocent blood is to reject Jesus' sacrifice.

Something I am still not able to wrap my head around is when ANY church (including the LDS) will shun someone by judging their actions, who might then go and commit suicide. Isn't this innocent blood? Or is this a mixture of saving innocents in the Church who might me harmed by the one who was kicked out, along with the shedding of innocent blood. Aren't many gay people NOT responsible for the imbalance of their own hormones that cause then to be gay? Haven't we read in the Bible that such individuals are allowed to be this way due to the actions of others? IOW, this is entirely beyond their control? And is now their cross to carry? OTOH, even Paul indicates he made sure that someone who was committing a grave moral sin was removed from the early church in order to protect the innocent people in the church who may have been negatively affected. I just don't know. I have come to realize that when a person is excommunicated from the LDS Church this may NOT actually be representative of the Church "judging" such a person as being unsaved - but rather it is meant to be punishment (sigh) and a protective measure for other members of the Church who might otherwise be unduly influenced. I just don't know - and ANY type of judging to the point someone is excommunicated from a religion (my father was excommunicated from the Catholic Church because my mother refused to sign papers agreeing to raise children from their marriage in the Catholic Church) seems IMO to be beyond the responsibility of the church/Church. Of course, if it were up to me, NO ONE would be unsaved - regardless of the atrocities they may have caused. However, we HAVE been taught to forgive everyone, and that God will forgive whom He chooses to forgive. But that is not the reason I'd love to see everyone saved. I think that my feeling comes not from a commandment, but is a natural loving thing to want because I love my Savior and my Father.....it just comes with the territory.

God bless,

jo

[OneSizeFit]

I would add a warning label on the cover.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Proverbs 6....
16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

I was curious about the structuring of the language of this verse, how it states six things, then adds a seventh.

I found that this is a poetic style of writing which occurs several times in the bible such as A m o s Chapter 1 and P s a l m s 62. It is intended to show that the latter items have specific emphasis on them. In this particular proverb, the text is telling us that baseless hatred is the worst sin of all.