Did God take His forgiveness back?

[bling]

[mikewhitney]

One aspect to be noticed in Peter's question is that Peter likely was anticipating that 7 times of forgiving a person would be a generous number -- one he anticipated due to earlier teachings of Jesus. Jesus outdid that expectation.

Also, recognize that there was not much forgiveness being expressed in this culture. Maybe such lack of forgiveness is related to the Honor-shame culture that people have discussed around here. It seems that that generation was very judgmental about the behavior of other people.


There likely are two separate issues being addressed in this parable.

1. Christian Forgiveness

Christians were to understand the importance of forgiveness, of not holding grudges against each other. The forgiveness of sins by the Father was to mean also that we were supposed to reconcile with others. This probably also was speaking against inclinations toward revenge -- which might especially have had upcoming significance in the face of persecutions.

2. Judgment on Jerusalem

The last several verses spoke of torture or judgment upon people not having the attitude of forgiveness toward others. I think this didn't speak of Christians, whose natures were partly changed by the down payment of the Holy Spirit. There may have been a focus on Pharisees and other leaders, as well as of those who would persecute the followers of Christ. We could consider, here, that even these people had been forgiven through the cross (I'm probably okay with that idea -- but I haven't thought out the doctrine sufficiently enough.) So those who would persecute people were thus going to go against followers of Christ -- and thus spurning the offer of forgiveness by the Father. This was a rejection of the work being done by the Messiah ... and, with the persecution of Christ-followers, was a basis for judgment of many Jerusalem.

Those are the main elements in the parable.

We might also find that the initial debtor-servant had acted on one of the following two motivations:

1. He didn't recognize the forgiveness of the Father as real and authentic. So he still sought to get money that was owed by other debtor slaves.

2. He was greedy and ruthless -- not expressing the kindness of the owner. Thus he sought collection of debts for his own increase. This was especially bad because he was harming the servants of the lord -- who just forgave the debt.






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[mikewhitney]

I disagree with the saying that each element in the parable has a spiritual meaning. Analogies have thematic matches to the topic being described.

The mention of the kingdom, as with the gospel (they are closely related -- if not the same), has both a place for the righteous and a cleansing of the unrighteous. See, for example, Rom 2:7-10.

[37818]

As to the question, "Did God take His forgiveness back?"

On what basis does God forgive sins?

Under the Law, so it is to be understood, "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." -- Matthew 18:35. (Leviticus 19:34; Matthew 18:33.)

Now in view that Christ died for all (Isaiah 53:6; Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:14; 1 John 2:2). In so being that Christ is the true vine (John 15:1) and all for whom He died are in the vine, unless removed (John 15:2, 6). And by the same, so all names are in the book of life only not to be removed by overcoming the world through faith in Christ (1 John 5:4, 5; Revelation 3:5; Revelation 21:7).

So in view that Christ died for all, so that to both securing salvation for the saved and to greater damn those who will be lost: God does take back the forgiveness.

[Meh Gerbil]

Forgiveness, by its very nature, cannot be taken back.

[37818]

Forgiveness, by its very nature, cannot be taken back.

So what are you saying about the teaching Jesus gave regarding the kingdom, ". . . his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, . . . . . . And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him?" A falsehood?

[Sparko]

So what are you saying about the teaching Jesus gave regarding the kingdom, ". . . his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, . . . . . . And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him?" A falsehood?

I thought you believed like me, "once saved always saved" - so how can God take back his forgiveness?

[37818]

I thought you believed like me, "once saved always saved" - so how can God take back his forgiveness?

Yes, I believe God who saves also keeps those whom He saves. If you reread my previous reply, I believe in a universal general redemption, that Christ paid the dept for all men. But I do not believe in universalism where everyone is therefore all saved. So I believe everyone is in the true vine, Christ having died for them. I believe everyone's name is in the book of life because Christ died for everyone. But unless one is born from God that one will be removed from the vine (John 15:6). And the only way, apart from dying as a little child to keep one's name in the book of life is to born from God (1 John 5:4-5; Revelation 3:5; Revelation 20:15).

[Meh Gerbil]

So what are you saying about the teaching Jesus gave regarding the kingdom, ". . . his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, . . . . . . And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him?" A falsehood?

I think we have to be careful with how we use parables.
Using that same parable I can ask you this: Is it possible for a person to pay back his debt by spending time with the tormentors?

[Sparko]

Yes, I believe God who saves also keeps those whom He saves. If you reread my previous reply, I believe in a universal general redemption, that Christ paid the dept for all men. But I do not believe in universalism where everyone is therefore all saved. So I believe everyone is in the true vine, Christ having died for them. I believe everyone's name is in the book of life because Christ died for everyone. But unless one is born from God that one will be removed from the vine (John 15:6). And the only way, apart from dying as a little child to keep one's name in the book of life is to born from God (1 John 5:4-5; Revelation 3:5; Revelation 20:15).

who is arguing for universalism? The subject is can God unforgive you once you are forgiven. You have been arguing "yes" when if you are OSAS, the answer is "no" - The Catholics think that God can take back his forgiveness if you sin again, and you have to confess and be forgiven all over again. We don't. We believe once God forgives you of your sins, you are forgiven forever: past and future sins. No indian-giving with God. No take backs.


Your idea of the vine and book of life is pretty odd. You believe they are forgiven yet not saved. The bible doesn't teach that at all. If you are forgiven, you are saved. You are not forgiven until you ask Jesus to become your Lord. You are not part of his vine until you do that. You are a weed until then.

[bling]

So what are you saying about the teaching Jesus gave regarding the kingdom, ". . . his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, . . . . . . And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him?" A falsehood?

[37818]

Well two things to note. One, if God's love is unconditional then salvation would be universal. But God's love is not unconditional (Romans 1:18; John 3:16, 36; 2 Thessalonians 1:8; Psalm 5:5). God's love cannot be merited, God's love is unmerited love (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 5:8).

[37818]

who is arguing for universalism? The subject is can God unforgive you once you are forgiven. You have been arguing "yes" when if you are OSAS, the answer is "no" - The Catholics think that God can take back his forgiveness if you sin again, and you have to confess and be forgiven all over again. We don't. We believe once God forgives you of your sins, you are forgiven forever: past and future sins. No indian-giving with God. No take backs.


Your idea of the vine and book of life is pretty odd. You believe they are forgiven yet not saved. The bible doesn't teach that at all. If you are forgiven, you are saved. You are not forgiven until you ask Jesus to become your Lord. You are not part of his vine until you do that. You are a weed until then.

At what age does a little child need to get saved? (Revelation 20:15; Romans 3:10, 23.)

[Sparko]

At what age does a little child need to get saved? (Revelation 20:15; Romans 3:10, 23.)

Stop trying to change the topic.

[37818]

I think we have to be careful with how we use parables.
Using that same parable I can ask you this: Is it possible for a person to pay back his debt by spending time with the tormentors?

No. And that was the point. Can the lost get out of the eternal hell?