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Did God take His forgiveness back?

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  • Did God take His forgiveness back?

    I am teaching an adult class on the parable Matt. 18: 21-35 “The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant” and would like your comments on this parable.

    A lot of commentaries (especially Calvinistic Commentaries) tell us what this parable does not teach, but give little support for what it does teach, so what is it teaching us?

    What can we hopefully agree with from the information given and please give other options if you have them and scripture to back it up:

    1.It starts off ““The kingdom of heaven is like…” so if it is consistent with all other Kingdom Parables every noun and verb in the parable would have to have a parallel spiritual kingdom meaning (stand for something in the kingdom)?


    2.Since this is a Kingdom parable could it be talking about a time prior to Christ going to the cross?


    3.The “king”/”master” would refer to God since Christ ends with “This is how my Father in heaven will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.” Options?


    4.The first debtor (man/servant) has to be a sinner, but could this be a saved Christian (servant) and/or just any unbeliever?


    5.The “debt” is huge 10,000 bags of Gold (5+ billion dollars) or 10,000 bags of silver (100 million dollars) no matter, either is way above what could be paid back by a servant. Gold or silver, this is virtually an impossible amount for one person to ever owe in the first century and everyone Jesus was addressing would have realized this. Spiritually this debt would represent each of our debts created by our sinning against God and Jesus said: “The man was not able to pay”?


    6.The servant did not just slip into this huge debt over night, but would have had to take years or a life time to get so deeply in debt, so he is not coming to the master unaware. To be trusted by the Master with such a huge amount of money; suggest the servant understood economics and the value of the money or would have learned about it over time.


    7.The servant asks ‘Give me time,’ he begged. ‘I’ll pay everything back.’ Is this a lie to the master or how could he not know he could not pay it back? Was the Master so stupid as to entrust a stupid servant with this much money?


    8.Would/could the Master have felt the servant could pay this back over time?


    9. Jesus said: “He forgave him what he owed”, but was that what the servant was asking for?


    10.Could the servant have felt: “he got away with something by asking for more time”, “the master is gullible”, “he still owes master but gave him more time”, “the master must like him”?


    11.Matt.18:28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. This sounds like: the first servant immediate went out and found a fellow servant of the Master with little time elapsing, so is he unloving to a servant of the master?


    12.Jesus teaches us in Luke 7:36-50 “… he that is forgiven much loves much…”, so since this first servant was forgiven of such a unbelievable huge debt he would automatically and have to have an unbelievable huge Love which would easily be seen in his actions toward another servant of the master since servants of good masters were almost treated as family members. How could this servant be unloving toward a servant of the Master if he Loved the master?


    13.Did the Master expect the servant to show great Love?


    14.How could the Master “handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.” Since the master had forgiven the debt the servant owed, so the servant owed the Master nothing?


    15.If the servant has to payback this unbelievable huge debt before the torture can stop how long will that take and does that not sound like hell?


    16.Since the servant shows no great love after the Master forgave him and since the servant still owes the master the huge debt forgiveness must not have taken place even though the master did His part perfectly was there a part the servant had to play to complete the forgiveness transaction?


    17.If there is a part the sinner must play (humbly accepting the pure charity) in the forgiveness process would it take anything away from God’s sovereignty?

  • #2
    One aspect to be noticed in Peter's question is that Peter likely was anticipating that 7 times of forgiving a person would be a generous number -- one he anticipated due to earlier teachings of Jesus. Jesus outdid that expectation.

    Also, recognize that there was not much forgiveness being expressed in this culture. Maybe such lack of forgiveness is related to the Honor-shame culture that people have discussed around here. It seems that that generation was very judgmental about the behavior of other people.


    There likely are two separate issues being addressed in this parable.

    1. Christian Forgiveness

    Christians were to understand the importance of forgiveness, of not holding grudges against each other. The forgiveness of sins by the Father was to mean also that we were supposed to reconcile with others. This probably also was speaking against inclinations toward revenge -- which might especially have had upcoming significance in the face of persecutions.

    2. Judgment on Jerusalem

    The last several verses spoke of torture or judgment upon people not having the attitude of forgiveness toward others. I think this didn't speak of Christians, whose natures were partly changed by the down payment of the Holy Spirit. There may have been a focus on Pharisees and other leaders, as well as of those who would persecute the followers of Christ. We could consider, here, that even these people had been forgiven through the cross (I'm probably okay with that idea -- but I haven't thought out the doctrine sufficiently enough.) So those who would persecute people were thus going to go against followers of Christ -- and thus spurning the offer of forgiveness by the Father. This was a rejection of the work being done by the Messiah ... and, with the persecution of Christ-followers, was a basis for judgment of many Jerusalem.

    Those are the main elements in the parable.

    We might also find that the initial debtor-servant had acted on one of the following two motivations:

    1. He didn't recognize the forgiveness of the Father as real and authentic. So he still sought to get money that was owed by other debtor slaves.

    2. He was greedy and ruthless -- not expressing the kindness of the owner. Thus he sought collection of debts for his own increase. This was especially bad because he was harming the servants of the lord -- who just forgave the debt.






    //

    Comment


    • #3
      I disagree with the saying that each element in the parable has a spiritual meaning. Analogies have thematic matches to the topic being described.

      The mention of the kingdom, as with the gospel (they are closely related -- if not the same), has both a place for the righteous and a cleansing of the unrighteous. See, for example, Rom 2:7-10.

      Comment


      • #4
        As to the question, "Did God take His forgiveness back?"

        On what basis does God forgive sins?

        Under the Law, so it is to be understood, "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." -- Matthew 18:35. (Leviticus 19:34; Matthew 18:33.)

        Now in view that Christ died for all (Isaiah 53:6; Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:14; 1 John 2:2). In so being that Christ is the true vine (John 15:1) and all for whom He died are in the vine, unless removed (John 15:2, 6). And by the same, so all names are in the book of life only not to be removed by overcoming the world through faith in Christ (1 John 5:4, 5; Revelation 3:5; Revelation 21:7).

        So in view that Christ died for all, so that to both securing salvation for the saved and to greater damn those who will be lost: God does take back the forgiveness.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #5
          Forgiveness, by its very nature, cannot be taken back.
          Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
            Forgiveness, by its very nature, cannot be taken back.
            So what are you saying about the teaching Jesus gave regarding the kingdom, ". . . his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, . . . . . . And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him?" A falsehood?
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              So what are you saying about the teaching Jesus gave regarding the kingdom, ". . . his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, . . . . . . And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him?" A falsehood?
              I thought you believed like me, "once saved always saved" - so how can God take back his forgiveness?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                I thought you believed like me, "once saved always saved" - so how can God take back his forgiveness?
                Yes, I believe God who saves also keeps those whom He saves. If you reread my previous reply, I believe in a universal general redemption, that Christ paid the dept for all men. But I do not believe in universalism where everyone is therefore all saved. So I believe everyone is in the true vine, Christ having died for them. I believe everyone's name is in the book of life because Christ died for everyone. But unless one is born from God that one will be removed from the vine (John 15:6). And the only way, apart from dying as a little child to keep one's name in the book of life is to born from God (1 John 5:4-5; Revelation 3:5; Revelation 20:15).
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  So what are you saying about the teaching Jesus gave regarding the kingdom, ". . . his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, . . . . . . And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him?" A falsehood?
                  I think we have to be careful with how we use parables.
                  Using that same parable I can ask you this: Is it possible for a person to pay back his debt by spending time with the tormentors?
                  Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    Yes, I believe God who saves also keeps those whom He saves. If you reread my previous reply, I believe in a universal general redemption, that Christ paid the dept for all men. But I do not believe in universalism where everyone is therefore all saved. So I believe everyone is in the true vine, Christ having died for them. I believe everyone's name is in the book of life because Christ died for everyone. But unless one is born from God that one will be removed from the vine (John 15:6). And the only way, apart from dying as a little child to keep one's name in the book of life is to born from God (1 John 5:4-5; Revelation 3:5; Revelation 20:15).
                    who is arguing for universalism? The subject is can God unforgive you once you are forgiven. You have been arguing "yes" when if you are OSAS, the answer is "no" - The Catholics think that God can take back his forgiveness if you sin again, and you have to confess and be forgiven all over again. We don't. We believe once God forgives you of your sins, you are forgiven forever: past and future sins. No indian-giving with God. No take backs.


                    Your idea of the vine and book of life is pretty odd. You believe they are forgiven yet not saved. The bible doesn't teach that at all. If you are forgiven, you are saved. You are not forgiven until you ask Jesus to become your Lord. You are not part of his vine until you do that. You are a weed until then.
                    Last edited by Sparko; 03-27-2017, 09:34 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      So what are you saying about the teaching Jesus gave regarding the kingdom, ". . . his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, . . . . . . And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him?" A falsehood?
                      If Love is unconditional would that also mean someone with unconditional Love would also forgive unconditionally?

                      Are you saying Jesus redefined “forgiveness” to mean it is conditional and can be taken back? If God can take back His forgiveness that would mean I also should be able to take back my forgiveness?

                      Like many words Jesus does seem to improve on the definition, but could the definition of “forgiveness” be improved upon without making it conditional?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by bling View Post
                        If Love is unconditional would that also mean someone with unconditional Love would also forgive unconditionally?

                        Are you saying Jesus redefined “forgiveness” to mean it is conditional and can be taken back? If God can take back His forgiveness that would mean I also should be able to take back my forgiveness?

                        Like many words Jesus does seem to improve on the definition, but could the definition of “forgiveness” be improved upon without making it conditional?
                        Well two things to note. One, if God's love is unconditional then salvation would be universal. But God's love is not unconditional (Romans 1:18; John 3:16, 36; 2 Thessalonians 1:8; Psalm 5:5). God's love cannot be merited, God's love is unmerited love (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 5:8).
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          who is arguing for universalism? The subject is can God unforgive you once you are forgiven. You have been arguing "yes" when if you are OSAS, the answer is "no" - The Catholics think that God can take back his forgiveness if you sin again, and you have to confess and be forgiven all over again. We don't. We believe once God forgives you of your sins, you are forgiven forever: past and future sins. No indian-giving with God. No take backs.


                          Your idea of the vine and book of life is pretty odd. You believe they are forgiven yet not saved. The bible doesn't teach that at all. If you are forgiven, you are saved. You are not forgiven until you ask Jesus to become your Lord. You are not part of his vine until you do that. You are a weed until then.
                          At what age does a little child need to get saved? (Revelation 20:15; Romans 3:10, 23.)
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            At what age does a little child need to get saved? (Revelation 20:15; Romans 3:10, 23.)
                            Stop trying to change the topic.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                              I think we have to be careful with how we use parables.
                              Using that same parable I can ask you this: Is it possible for a person to pay back his debt by spending time with the tormentors?
                              No. And that was the point. Can the lost get out of the eternal hell?
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment

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