Originally posted by Sparko
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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Did God take His forgiveness back?
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. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostIn the limited atonement view Christ only paid for the sins of the saved. Unlimited atonement Christ dying for sins did not secure salvation for anyone unless those who are lost would have a greater damnation for refusing God's conditional unmerited grace. (Romans 14;9-11; 2 Corinthians 5:10-11.)
Your idea of God forgiving everyone then not forgiving them later is psychotic.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postwho is arguing for universalism? The subject is can God unforgive you once you are forgiven. You have been arguing "yes""As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Revelation 3:5 seems to imply that one's name can be blotted out of the Book of Life. Forgiveness is conditional on continuing to abide with God until the final judgment, at which point all fates are irreversible (nobody is going to be "unforgiven" and kicked out of the New Jerusalem after that)."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostWell, he doesn't just argue yes, he quotes a parable where God does exactly that. Conversely, you recite what your beliefs are but don't even as much as give your interpretation of this verse.
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While I think salvation can be lost I don't think this parable, or really any parable, is good evidence for that viewpoint. You can't take parables too literally; the details are usually besides the point. It's clear what Jesus's point was (which Sparko explains in his last point)."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostCan God take away his forgiveness to you for the sins you have committed once he has forgiven you those sins?
Your idea of God forgiving everyone then not forgiving them later is psychotic.
Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostRevelation 3:5 seems to imply that one's name can be blotted out of the Book of Life. Forgiveness is conditional on continuing to abide with God until the final judgment, at which point all fates are irreversible (nobody is going to be "unforgiven" and kicked out of the New Jerusalem after that).. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostWell two things to note. One, if God's love is unconditional then salvation would be universal. But God's love is not unconditional (Romans 1:18; John 3:16, 36; 2 Thessalonians 1:8; Psalm 5:5). God's love cannot be merited, God's love is unmerited love (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 5:8).
God’s Love is totally unconditional and is like the Love which the Prodigal son’s father had, in that the father Loves to young son the same if he stays away or returns?
God Loves all humans he created, but will not force us to accept His Love (that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun). If of our own free will we choose to not to humbly accept God’s Love (forgiveness/mercy/grace/charity/help) and will never accept it (God would know when we reached this point), than we take on the lessor objective of helping others which still can choose to humbly accept God’s charity, which can be through our bad behavior and starving to death in the pigsty of life.
You are saying Jesus “redefines” or further refines “forgiveness” to be conditional, but Jesus might be giving us a more complete definition of “forgiveness’ (like he did with Love), which allows forgiveness to still be unconditional.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThat parable is pretty clear, if you don't forgive others then you won't be forgiven. The point is not that he was forgiven then unforgiven. The point was that if you won't forgive those around you that you won't be forgiven in the first place. If you are saved and forgiven, you will forgive others. It's what you do. If you don't, then you have not been reborn and have no appreciation for God's gift and mercy.
You seem to be saying there is another step besides God forgiving you, since if he was forgiven he would behave correctly (Lovingly toward the other servant).
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Originally posted by bling View PostI agree with you for the most part, but Jesus said the Master God forgave the first servant so was he saved or is there something else that has to happen and if so what?
You seem to be saying there is another step besides God forgiving you, since if he was forgiven he would behave correctly (Lovingly toward the other servant).
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Originally posted by bling View PostYou say: “if God's love is unconditional then salvation would be universal”, which is not true.
God’s Love is totally unconditional and is like the Love which the Prodigal son’s father had, in that the father Loves to young son the same if he stays away or returns?
God Loves all humans he created, but will not force us to accept His Love (that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun). If of our own free will we choose to not to humbly accept God’s Love (forgiveness/mercy/grace/charity/help) and will never accept it (God would know when we reached this point), than we take on the lessor objective of helping others which still can choose to humbly accept God’s charity, which can be through our bad behavior and starving to dTheath in the pigsty of life.
You are saying Jesus “redefines” or further refines “forgiveness” to be conditional, but Jesus might be giving us a more complete definition of “forgiveness’ (like he did with Love), which allows forgiveness to still be unconditional.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI think you are trying to match up too many details. The point was that if you expect God to forgive you, you need to forgive others. It wasn't a step by step diagram of the day of judgment.
Is God Love conditional or unconditional?
Jesus teaches us "...he that is forgiven much loves much..." so would that much love also produce forgiving much or do we have to first Love much to be forgiven much?
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThere was a condition of the Father's love. The Prodigal was the father's son. There is the condition for forgiveness under the Law and there is the condition of forgiveness under grace. Under the law one must forgive to be forgiven. Under grace the condition is that forgiveness cannot be merited in that it is based solely upon the finished work of Christ on the cross. Under the law it must be merited. Under grace it cannot be merited.
This parable is a kingdom parable, so this forgiveness is not conditional like it seemed to be under the Law, but you might not agree. Do you believe Kingdom parables are under the “Law”?
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Originally posted by bling View PostIf the prodigal son had been macho enough to take the punishment he fully deserved paid the piper and not wimped out dying in the pigsty would he have been lost?
This parable is a kingdom parable, so this forgiveness is not conditional like it seemed to be under the Law, but you might not agree. Do you believe Kingdom parables are under the “Law”?
1. ". . . I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. . . ." -- Matthew 15:24.
2. The parables were not directed to His disciples, ". . . Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: . . ." -- Mark 4:11.
3. So they were spoken to those who were under the Law.
And:
4. The disciples were to understand the meaning of the parables, ". . . Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?" -- Mark 4:13. This Jesus in teaching the parable of the sower.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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