Did God take His forgiveness back?

[37818]

Stop trying to change the topic.

In the limited atonement view Christ only paid for the sins of the saved. Unlimited atonement Christ dying for sins did not secure salvation for anyone unless those who are lost would have a greater damnation for refusing God's conditional unmerited grace. (Romans 14;9-11; 2 Corinthians 5:10-11.)

[Sparko]

In the limited atonement view Christ only paid for the sins of the saved. Unlimited atonement Christ dying for sins did not secure salvation for anyone unless those who are lost would have a greater damnation for refusing God's conditional unmerited grace. (Romans 14;9-11; 2 Corinthians 5:10-11.)

Can God take away his forgiveness to you for the sins you have committed once he has forgiven you those sins?

Your idea of God forgiving everyone then not forgiving them later is psychotic.

[Darth Executor]

who is arguing for universalism? The subject is can God unforgive you once you are forgiven. You have been arguing "yes"

Well, he doesn't just argue yes, he quotes a parable where God does exactly that. Conversely, you recite what your beliefs are but don't even as much as give your interpretation of this verse.

[KingsGambit]

Revelation 3:5 seems to imply that one's name can be blotted out of the Book of Life. Forgiveness is conditional on continuing to abide with God until the final judgment, at which point all fates are irreversible (nobody is going to be "unforgiven" and kicked out of the New Jerusalem after that).

[Sparko]

Well, he doesn't just argue yes, he quotes a parable where God does exactly that. Conversely, you recite what your beliefs are but don't even as much as give your interpretation of this verse.

That parable is pretty clear, if you don't forgive others then you won't be forgiven. The point is not that he was forgiven then unforgiven. The point was that if you won't forgive those around you that you won't be forgiven in the first place. If you are saved and forgiven, you will forgive others. It's what you do. If you don't, then you have not been reborn and have no appreciation for God's gift and mercy.

[KingsGambit]

While I think salvation can be lost I don't think this parable, or really any parable, is good evidence for that viewpoint. You can't take parables too literally; the details are usually besides the point. It's clear what Jesus's point was (which Sparko explains in his last point).

[37818]

Can God take away his forgiveness to you for the sins you have committed once he has forgiven you those sins?

Your idea of God forgiving everyone then not forgiving them later is psychotic.

The parable is under the law and states explicitly that forgiveness is conditional and only merited if one forgives others (Matthew 18:35).

Revelation 3:5 seems to imply that one's name can be blotted out of the Book of Life. Forgiveness is conditional on continuing to abide with God until the final judgment, at which point all fates are irreversible (nobody is going to be "unforgiven" and kicked out of the New Jerusalem after that).

It implies that names can be blotted out while stating the promise for those who overcome (1 John 5:4-5; Revelation 21:7) will in no way have their names blotted out.

[bling]

Well two things to note. One, if God's love is unconditional then salvation would be universal. But God's love is not unconditional (Romans 1:18; John 3:16, 36; 2 Thessalonians 1:8; Psalm 5:5). God's love cannot be merited, God's love is unmerited love (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 5:8).

You say: “if God's love is unconditional then salvation would be universal”, which is not true.
God’s Love is totally unconditional and is like the Love which the Prodigal son’s father had, in that the father Loves to young son the same if he stays away or returns?
God Loves all humans he created, but will not force us to accept His Love (that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun). If of our own free will we choose to not to humbly accept God’s Love (forgiveness/mercy/grace/charity/help) and will never accept it (God would know when we reached this point), than we take on the lessor objective of helping others which still can choose to humbly accept God’s charity, which can be through our bad behavior and starving to death in the pigsty of life.
You are saying Jesus “redefines” or further refines “forgiveness” to be conditional, but Jesus might be giving us a more complete definition of “forgiveness’ (like he did with Love), which allows forgiveness to still be unconditional.

[bling]

That parable is pretty clear, if you don't forgive others then you won't be forgiven. The point is not that he was forgiven then unforgiven. The point was that if you won't forgive those around you that you won't be forgiven in the first place. If you are saved and forgiven, you will forgive others. It's what you do. If you don't, then you have not been reborn and have no appreciation for God's gift and mercy.

I agree with you for the most part, but Jesus said the Master God forgave the first servant so was he saved or is there something else that has to happen and if so what?

You seem to be saying there is another step besides God forgiving you, since if he was forgiven he would behave correctly (Lovingly toward the other servant).

[Sparko]

I agree with you for the most part, but Jesus said the Master God forgave the first servant so was he saved or is there something else that has to happen and if so what?

You seem to be saying there is another step besides God forgiving you, since if he was forgiven he would behave correctly (Lovingly toward the other servant).

I think you are trying to match up too many details. The point was that if you expect God to forgive you, you need to forgive others. It wasn't a step by step diagram of the day of judgment.

[37818]

You say: “if God's love is unconditional then salvation would be universal”, which is not true.
God’s Love is totally unconditional and is like the Love which the Prodigal son’s father had, in that the father Loves to young son the same if he stays away or returns?
God Loves all humans he created, but will not force us to accept His Love (that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun). If of our own free will we choose to not to humbly accept God’s Love (forgiveness/mercy/grace/charity/help) and will never accept it (God would know when we reached this point), than we take on the lessor objective of helping others which still can choose to humbly accept God’s charity, which can be through our bad behavior and starving to dTheath in the pigsty of life.
You are saying Jesus “redefines” or further refines “forgiveness” to be conditional, but Jesus might be giving us a more complete definition of “forgiveness’ (like he did with Love), which allows forgiveness to still be unconditional.

There was a condition of the Father's love. The Prodigal was the father's son. There is the condition for forgiveness under the Law and there is the condition of forgiveness under grace. Under the law one must forgive to be forgiven. Under grace the condition is that forgiveness cannot be merited in that it is based solely upon the finished work of Christ on the cross. Under the law it must be merited. Under grace it cannot be merited.

[bling]

I think you are trying to match up too many details. The point was that if you expect God to forgive you, you need to forgive others. It wasn't a step by step diagram of the day of judgment.

Who forgives first God or us?

Is God Love conditional or unconditional?

Jesus teaches us "...he that is forgiven much loves much..." so would that much love also produce forgiving much or do we have to first Love much to be forgiven much?

[bling]

There was a condition of the Father's love. The Prodigal was the father's son. There is the condition for forgiveness under the Law and there is the condition of forgiveness under grace. Under the law one must forgive to be forgiven. Under grace the condition is that forgiveness cannot be merited in that it is based solely upon the finished work of Christ on the cross. Under the law it must be merited. Under grace it cannot be merited.

If the prodigal son had been macho enough to take the punishment he fully deserved paid the piper and not wimped out dying in the pigsty would he have been lost?

This parable is a kingdom parable, so this forgiveness is not conditional like it seemed to be under the Law, but you might not agree. Do you believe Kingdom parables are under the “Law”?

[37818]

If the prodigal son had been macho enough to take the punishment he fully deserved paid the piper and not wimped out dying in the pigsty would he have been lost?

This parable is a kingdom parable, so this forgiveness is not conditional like it seemed to be under the Law, but you might not agree. Do you believe Kingdom parables are under the “Law”?

A number of things must be understood about all parables. The audience to whom parables are addressed.
1. ". . . I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. . . ." -- Matthew 15:24.
2. The parables were not directed to His disciples, ". . . Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: . . ." -- Mark 4:11.
3. So they were spoken to those who were under the Law.
And:
4. The disciples were to understand the meaning of the parables, ". . . Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?" -- Mark 4:13. This Jesus in teaching the parable of the sower.