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Existential Nihilism & Atheism...

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  • Existential Nihilism & Atheism...

    Definition:

    Existential nihilism is the philosophical theory that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. With respect to the universe, existential nihilism posits that a single human or even the entire human species is insignificant, without purpose and unlikely to change in the totality of existence. According to the theory, each individual is an isolated being born into the universe, barred from knowing "why", yet compelled to invent meaning.[1] The inherent meaninglessness of life is largely explored in the philosophical school of existentialism, where one can potentially create their own subjective "meaning" or "purpose". Of all types of nihilism, existential nihilism has received the most literary and philosophical attention.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existential_nihilism
    Doesn't existential nihilism follow naturally from atheism? That mankind, ultimately, is insignificant with no intrinsic meaning or purpose? If not, why not?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    I explained it here.

    The TL;DR is that meaning and purpose are ascribed to things by intelligent and conscious beings, and that we as human beings find meaning and purpose in all sorts of things - in relationships, in marriages, in friendships, in children, in our jobs, etc. Those meanings and purposes have all the value that we give to them quite aside from whether there is any God or not. Adding God only means there is one more sentient being who can have meanings and purposes and in that sense is no more relevant or important than adding one additional human.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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    • #3
      Sounds less like God and more like neitzches ubermensch.
      Even then though God is better as God is eternal personal and gives life meaning whereas the ubermenches makes man out to be a fossil an appendicitis. Man's problem is that we are fallen and in being fallen know not our purpose. We arbitrarily attempt to be entirely autonomous to hide from our existential despair that onlyrics trusting in God can solve.
      sigpic

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      • #4
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Definition:

        Doesn't existential nihilism follow naturally from atheism? That mankind, ultimately, is insignificant with no intrinsic meaning or purpose? If not, why not?
        Not necessarily. There are atheists who believe that mankind has intrinsic purpose even among philosophical naturalists, let alone supernaturalist atheists.

        I, personally, might be considered an existential nihilist, insofar as I don't believe "meaning" is something which CAN be objective-- it seems like an inherently subjective concept, to me.
        "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
        --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
          I explained it
          The TL;DR is that meaning and purpose are ascribed to things by intelligent and conscious beings, and that we as human beings find meaning and purpose in all sorts of things - in relationships, in marriages, in friendships, in children, in our jobs, etc. Those meanings and purposes have all the value that we give to them quite aside from whether there is any God or not. Adding God only means there is one more sentient being who can have meanings and purposes and in that sense is no more relevant or important than adding one additional human.
          Well no adding God adds a transcendent and universal meaning to humankind, and a God could insure our ultimate survival. Let me quote from the definition again: existential nihilism posits that a single human or even the entire human species is insignificant, without purpose and unlikely to change in the totality of existence

          If our species went extinct tomorrow how would effect anything for the worse?
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
            Not necessarily. There are atheists who believe that mankind has intrinsic purpose even among philosophical naturalists, let alone supernaturalist atheists.
            And what would that intrinsic purpose be? Exactly.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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            • #7
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              And what would that intrinsic purpose be? Exactly.
              The answers to that question vary, just as they do among theists. A humanist might answer that the intrinsic purpose of mankind is to help as much and to harm as little as possible. A Zen Buddhist might say that the intrinsic purpose of mankind is to discover the enlightenment latent in one's soul. A particularly morbid atheist might say that mankind's purpose is to die. Et cetera, et cetera.
              "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
              --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                The answers to that question vary, just as they do among theists. A humanist might answer that the intrinsic purpose of mankind is to help as much and to harm as little as possible. A Zen Buddhist might say that the intrinsic purpose of mankind is to discover the enlightenment latent in one's soul. A particularly morbid atheist might say that mankind's purpose is to die. Et cetera, et cetera.
                Well I don't know about the Buddhist thing, but I think your atheist point lines up with nihilism. As far as the humanist - where would he ever get the idea of intrinsic purpose? Not from nature. Do they just assert intrinsic purpose without a rational?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Well I don't know about the Buddhist thing, but I think your atheist point lines up with nihilism. As far as the humanist - where would he ever get the idea of intrinsic purpose? Not from nature. Do they just assert intrinsic purpose without a rational?
                  You'd have to ask them. Again, I'm of the mind that ANY claim of "intrinsic" or objective purpose ultimately boils down to an axiomatic assertion which I'm likely to reject.
                  "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                  --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Definition:



                    Doesn't existential nihilism follow naturally from atheism? That mankind, ultimately, is insignificant with no intrinsic meaning or purpose? If not, why not?
                    I believe that were an atheist honest with himself, then yes, his worldview ought to naturally lead to nihilism. I know if I were an atheist, I definitely would be a nihilist, and I know a few atheists in the punk scene who are, in fact, nihilists. But most atheists can't bear the thought that life is absolutely meaningless, probably because, whether they completely comprehend it, whether it's conscious or unconsciousness, it's very hard to deny that we were all created with purpose, and that there's something divinely unique about mankind. To deny this often leads to anxiety, depression, angst, and the like. So, rather than completely deny this, many will simply deflect, and find their meaning in their family, or their friends, or in the possibility of alien life, or in their favorite political or environmental group, or in their own self importance.
                    Last edited by Adrift; 03-26-2017, 04:50 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      But most atheists can't bear the thought that life is absolutely meaningless
                      Existential nihilism does not imply absolute meaninglessness. It simply rejects the claim that there can be such a thing as "intrinsic" or "objective" meaning. Existential nihilism does not deny the existence of subjective meaning-- quite the contrary, existential nihilists often focus on the subjective meaning which one ascribes to things in one's life.

                      probably because, whether they completely comprehend it, whether it's conscious or unconsciousness, it's very hard to deny that we were all created with purpose, and that there's something divinely unique about mankind.
                      I deny that we were created. I deny that we have some existential and objective purpose. And I deny that there is anything divinely unique about mankind. It's really not that hard.

                      To deny this often leads to anxiety, depression, angst, and the like.
                      The complete opposite has been true, in my case. When I was a Christian, I sincerely believed that God had some objective purpose for my life, and I went through a very difficult period in which this belief caused me anxiety, depression, and angst. I've never had any of these as a result of beliefs I hold now that I am no longer Christian, including my existential nihilism.

                      So, rather than completely deny this, many will simply deflect, and find their meaning in their family, or their friends, or in the possibility of alien life, or in their favorite political or environmental group, or in their own self importance.
                      That's not a deflection. If there is no objective meaning in this cosmos, and the only meaning which exists in life is that which we ascribe to things, then it's perfectly reasonable to find meaning in family or friends or social groups. I will, of course, agree that ascribing too great meaning to the possibility of alien life or to one's own self-importance can be rather unhealthy, but even these aren't unreasonable when taken in moderation.
                      "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                      --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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                      • #12
                        A dialouge.

                        Nietzsche- I am the first amoralist. Humanity and life are meaningless. We need the ubermensch the man who makes his own morality. God is dead and we killed him.
                        G.K. Chesterton- Neitzche you know in one way your thought almost lines up with christianity.
                        Kierkegaard- Indeed mr Chesterton. We humanity are in anguish because we know not our porpose for we are fallen. The only cure to this despair is to take a leap of faith and come to christ.
                        Chesterton- Indeed. Besides Neitzche if your gospel of hardness is so great why share it? Teaching is by its own nature altruistic yet you say morals and charity are part of mans weakness and why we need an uber man.
                        Solomon- Besides after looking at life we find pleasure but it is fleeting and vanity. Yet to say everything is absurd is taken apart by the value of freindship and the presence and servitude to God.
                        CS Lewis and Tolkein- And in looking at God we find the source of not only the true myth of human history and the foundation of love and morality but a personal God who desires us to know him.
                        sigpic

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                          Existential nihilism does not imply absolute meaninglessness. It simply rejects the claim that there can be such a thing as "intrinsic" or "objective" meaning. Existential nihilism does not deny the existence of subjective meaning-- quite the contrary, existential nihilists often focus on the subjective meaning which one ascribes to things in one's life.
                          Eh, I don't buy it. When people generally refer to the meaning of life, they're nearly always referring to intrinsic or objective meaning. It's only here on internet forums, online debates with atheists/agnostics that you get this messy sort of "we can derive meaning out of subjectivity", and in my experience, more than half of atheist/agnostics will adamantly refuse to believe that their conception of meaning is subjective.

                          Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                          I deny that we were created. I deny that we have some existential and objective purpose. And I deny that there is anything divinely unique about mankind. It's really not that hard.
                          Like I said, you may not fully comprehend it, or you may deny it on a conscious level, but most people still live and think as though they do believe these things deep within their being. I'm sure there a few who whole-heartedly do not believe that there is some existential and objective purpose to life, but they're in deep self-denial. They don't survive long, and/or a lot of them come across sociopathic.


                          Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                          The complete opposite has been true, in my case. When I was a Christian, I sincerely believed that God had some objective purpose for my life, and I went through a very difficult period in which this belief caused me anxiety, depression, and angst. I've never had any of these as a result of beliefs I hold now that I am no longer Christian, including my existential nihilism.
                          Yeah, but see, you're not really an existential nihilist. You think you are, but you're not. Not deep down anyways. You wouldn't be able to cope if you were. I mean, everyone goes through periods of anxiety, depression, and angst, but true nihilists are practically hopeless. Like I said, the ones who don't end up destroying themselves through suicide or self destructive behavior end up full on sociopaths. Were you a sociopath when you called yourself a Christian? Likely not.

                          Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                          That's not a deflection.
                          I'm happy to tell you that...it is a deflection! I realize that you consciously don't believe that right now, or don't want to believe it, or whatever, but the good news is that life does have real meaning! No not that goofy sense of the word "meaning" that some skeptics want to imbue it with, but REAL meaning, and it's glorious. I hope some day you come to a full realization of that. It'll make whatever you thought you experienced when you were going around calling yourself a Christian seem like a pale shadow.
                          Last edited by Adrift; 03-26-2017, 06:50 PM.

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                          • #14
                            My father is an example of one like me who turned away from the Roman Church, and unlike me, choose a practical indifferent atheist/agnostic in his world view. When we talked of his meaning in life he indicated his meaning in life and a sense of immortality was in his children, grand children, and so on. I wrote poem about my father when after he passed:

                            Oh Father!

                            I remember when I saw you last,
                            Your light fading, a ship sailing into the mist.
                            Sails trimmed in the light breeze,
                            Feeling for the last reef.

                            Our voyage was not close,
                            Two ships sailing abreast at half sail.
                            Gammy birds maneuvering in the wind.
                            Shouting distance, but not too close.

                            Your greatest desire was to fly,
                            Canada to the Pacific you served
                            Faith was in Pratt & Whitney,
                            Whether DeHaveland or PBY,

                            You never sold a car or plane,
                            You would ever admit to have owned
                            Each month the Newspaper read:
                            Pilot transferred must sell, 1966 Ford Fairlane

                            You played to avoid taking the queen.
                            In our parley for the most or the least
                            Neither of us could tame the beast,
                            Always take one or two to stay abeam.

                            I talked with you from time to time of beyond.
                            Immortality rested in your children’s children.
                            Fears of hell and purgatory or the vain desire of heaven
                            Faded with winter’s gale when you entered harbor sound.

                            The end came peacefully in the night.
                            The luck of the Irish dealt you right,
                            A full house, three Kings and a pair of Queens
                            A journey we all take without reason’s light

                            Frank Doonan
                            The Orange Dog Poet

                            I do object to Adrift's presumptions to judge others who believe differently, and not accept that they genuinely can have a belief in meaning and purpose in life without believing as Adrift believes.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Well no adding God adds a transcendent and universal meaning to humankind
                              To me that sentence is gobblygook. You'll have to unpack what you think you mean by "transcendent and universal meaning" for me to try to understand what you're getting at, since I see that as a self-contradiction. Like BP I reject the claim that there can be such a thing as "intrinsic" or "objective" meaning. Meaning is something that is assigned to things by intelligent beings, something can't have meaning in and of itself.

                              I wonder if, perhaps, you are concerned about the idea that one day human kind might die out and cease to exist. Because you add "and a God could insure our ultimate survival". Is the idea that you as a person struggle to find a sense of meaning in humanity's existence given the idea that we might one day all die?

                              If our species went extinct tomorrow how would effect anything for the worse?
                              Well it would thwart all purposes and goals that everyone currently in existence has, and it would also remove all meaning because you would be removing all the intelligent creatures that assign meaning to things.
                              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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