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Existential Nihilism & Atheism...

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  • #31
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    I listened to Tim, and I really don't see how he or you can escape existential nihilism
    Ah well... I really didn't expect to you see it, but it was worth a try.

    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    More to the point, we were created and intended for a purpose, and while one can find different purposes for, say, a fork or a chair, or whatever else (put them in a gallery, hang them on the wall, use them as construction tools, etc.), their true value will always be based in what they were initially intended and created for.
    That's one perspective, to be sure. The biggest question in this thread for me is whether or not you guys are able to get your head around and comprehend different perspectives even though you do not hold to them yourselves.

    Cheers -- sylas
    Last edited by sylas; 03-27-2017, 08:51 AM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by sylas View Post
      Ah well... I really didn't expect to you see it, but it was worth a try.



      That's one perspective, to be sure. The biggest question in this thread for me is whether or not you guys are able to get your head around and comprehend different perspectives even though you do not hold to them yourselves.

      Cheers -- sylas
      I would have agreed with you and Tim until my late thirties, so to assume that I don't comprehend this perspective is a bit weak.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by sylas View Post
        The biggest question in this thread for me is whether or not you guys are able to get your head around and comprehend different perspectives even though you do not hold to them yourselves.
        Well of course I can comprehend a different perspective, but we each believe that our perspective is the correct one, or else we wouldn't hold them. Mine really is the correct one though.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          But human opinions do change, and God is in the position to see His opinions enacted. What He finds valuable will remain valuable and certain.
          So what? God's opinions are still opinions, just like any human's.

          But if it really only a matter of our opinion, then one group, like adults or Nazis could find another group, like babies or Jews to be insignificant - to be disposed of at will.
          Um, newsflash seer, but that actually did happen.

          But Star I still don't know why you are not embracing Existential Nihilism
          As everyone here has been telling you: Meaning is subjective, not intrinsic.

          B.P.: "I don't believe "meaning" is something which CAN be objective-- it seems like an inherently subjective concept, to me."
          Starlight: "I reject the claim that there can be such a thing as "intrinsic" or "objective" meaning."
          Tassman: "As for meaning and purpose they are subjective values"
          Sylus: "meaning is inherently subjective, and not intrinsic."

          Intrinsic meaning is not something that can exist with or without a God. So your definition of Existential Nihilism is nonsensical because it implies that intrinsic meaning is something that could exist.

          To ensure you are using the word "meaning" correctly seer, when you're writing sentences seer try replacing the word "meaning" with "like" and replace the word "meaningless" or "lack of meaning" with "dislike" and see if the sentence still makes sense and that will tell you whether you are writing a coherent sentence or not. So when you write "Existential nihilism is the philosophical theory that life has no intrinsic meaning or value" that's like saying "Existential nihilism is the philosophical theory that life is disliked", it clearly needs a person who is doing the disliking stated, a person who is viewing it as having no meaning to them.

          But as it is what you're writing is coming across as nonsense to all the atheists here, you're saying sentences that make as much sense as: "why won't you guys agree that humanity is intrinsically disliked?" You're misusing terms that are subjective as if they were objective. It makes no more sense to ask if humanity's existence has meaning than it makes sense to ask if humanity's existence is liked, you need to specify a who to be doing the liking or the finding of meaning. I find meaning in my existence, I find lots of meaning in relationships with family and friends, I find lots of meaning in helping other people.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #35
            Seer,

            I've noticed you seem to have a deep-seated fear of death and think God resurrecting us is a particularly comforting idea and you feel it can give a sense of meaning to your life or to humanity's existence because you feel that if you/we died out then that would make our existence 'meaningless' and that immortality is needed to add meaning.

            So, I'm thinking that maybe sharing a certain scientific perspective with you might help. Modern physics has increasingly come to regard time as a dimension, so we talk of "4-dimensional space-time" (certain string-theories etc posit 10, 11 or 26 dimensions, but those are theoretical, we know from experience there are at least four). Things can be represented with 4 co-ordinates to give their locations within space-time. At this moment your existence could be represented with a 4-coordinate location within space-time. You will always exist at that four-coordinate location, no amount of later death or the later death of the human species can take that away from you. Because you exist now you exist at that location within space-time forever.

            Think of looking at a cube, where a beautiful picture has been drawn on one surface of the cube. Imagine that someone says "because the picture only exists on the surface of the cube and doesn't exist throughout the cube, I therefore find it meaningless and worthless as a picture, and not beautiful". That would be a strange perspective to have, would it not? The fact that the picture is bounded, that it doesn't exist very far along one of the 3 dimensions of the cube doesn't (a) take away from the fact that does exist, and (b) affect its beauty as a picture. The picture on the cube exists at certain 3-d co-ordinates on the cube, and has certain 3-d co-ordinate boundaries within which it exists. But it does exist, and those co-ordinates and their boundaries don't render it non-existent or take away from the attributes that it has. Obviously you as a person exist within spatial limits - you are not infinitely tall or infinitely fat. You have co-ordinates and boundaries within 4-d space-time, within which you will always exist. Your claims in this thread amount to "existence is meaningless if it is not infinite in one of the directions in the time dimension" but you think that the 7 other directions in the 4-d spacetime need not be infinite (you don't seem to need your life to exist infinitely backward in time to feel it meaningful and you don't seem to feel a need to be infinitely tall to have meaning), which seems a strange claim if you consider it from a 4-d perspective. The fact that you exist now means you will always exist at the 4-d coordinates that you exist in. Nothing and nobody will ever change that, you will always exist now at the location you are in now.

            And if that doesn't provide you with a sense of comfort, then just bear in mind that atheists don't particularly have to believe that death is 'the end'. As I have explained before, I consider the 'computer game' explanation of the universe to be one of the more likely ones, and in that view upon death you/I would either respawn as a new in-game person or 'wake up' out of the game into whatever reality is above this one. But there are a lot of other options that I can't rule out - for example, depending on how 'consciousness' works it might be the case that essentially there is only one 'consciousness' and thus every being in the universe that is conscious is utilizing that single consciousness in a way analogous to how on a single-processor computer that every running program was utilizing the single CPU, and if that is true then on death you/I would essentially be reincarnated as another person/creature/alien and so on forever until we had lived the life of every single person/creature in the history of the universe. Or consciousness might be a non-material substance that exists in a sort of semi-connected reality, that evolutionary processes had happened upon manipulating and found useful and so used it in evolutionary development and upon the death of our connected bodies in this world our consciousness reverts to its previous existence in the non-material world of consciousnesses as some sort of immortal ghosts or whatever exists in that reality.

            Basically, there are any number of possible ways we could continue to exist after the death of our bodies that don't involve "god". As an atheist I merely laugh at the silliness of the major world religions and their self-contradictory and horrible holy books and the ridiculous things they depict their gods doing, and view the suffering in this world as clearly demonstrating the lack of a powerful and altruistic deity, I don't however hold any strong belief that when I die it will be 'the end' and in fact I feel that the balance of probability leans towards it not being the end.
            Last edited by Starlight; 03-27-2017, 07:58 PM.
            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              So as an atheist do you believe that humans have intrinsic meaning or value?
              As an atheist, I neither believe nor disbelieve anything about meaning. As an atheist, I have no belief in any god. Whatever I believe about meaning, I believe for reasons unrelated to whether any god exists.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by seer View Post


                It does not say that we can't invent subjective meaning or value. So as an atheist do you believe that humans have intrinsic meaning or value? If so, what?
                Did the dinosaurs have intrinsic meaning or value as a species? Do orangutans? Of course not, why would we be any different as a species?
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  Well of course I can comprehend a different perspective, but we each believe that our perspective is the correct one, or else we wouldn't hold them. Mine really is the correct one though.
                  That's normal. What's not so normal -- and is in my opinion just rude and destructive of constructive discussion between disagreements -- is to add into the mix the claim that the ones who disagree must be dishonest. There's no need for that, it adds nothing to discussion, and it makes it much harder to make any progress in mutual understanding.

                  Sorry, but I just had to say that. It stuck out to me like a sore thumb earlier in this thread, and it is something that turns me off in a major way, and makes it harder for me to engage with civility and respect, which is my normal objective.

                  Cheers -- sylas

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                    As an atheist, I neither believe nor disbelieve anything about meaning. As an atheist, I have no belief in any god. Whatever I believe about meaning, I believe for reasons unrelated to whether any god exists.
                    Right, so you would accept that the definition of Existential Nihilism in the OP would apply to your beliefs.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      Did the dinosaurs have intrinsic meaning or value as a species? Do orangutans? Of course not, why would we be any different as a species?
                      Right, so you would accept that the definition of Existential Nihilism in the OP would apply to your beliefs.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        Seer,

                        I've noticed you seem to have a deep-seated fear of death and think God resurrecting us is a particularly comforting idea and you feel it can give a sense of meaning to your life or to humanity's existence because you feel that if you/we died out then that would make our existence 'meaningless' and that immortality is needed to add meaning.
                        Star you don't know me. First, I was agnostic until my late 30s. During that time I enlisted in the Marine Corps when the Vietnam War was raging, later I was a professional Firefighter and face imminent death on a number of occasions. I never had an extraordinary fear of death - I assumed that death was nothingness - and nothing to fear. I have had more angst about death since I have been a Christian because I came to believe that there are two fates after death. That judgement and justice await. But it is a fact that if we are immortal beings, and if there is a heaven to be won, and a hell to be shunned then our choices have infinitely more significance. What we do really does "echo in eternity." And that raises meaning, purpose and behavior to a completely different level.

                        Having said that, I do have something now that I did not have in my agnostic days - hope. Hope that I will one day meet my God face to face, hope that I will be reunited with my parents and loved ones who passed, who were devout Catholics. And yes that hope helps sustains me, and brings comfort.
                        Last edited by seer; 03-28-2017, 05:59 AM.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Star you don't know me.
                          Well I know what you've been posting in this thread, and several times you have suggested death as a supposed motivation to be nihilistic.

                          if there is a heaven to be won, and a hell to be shunned then our choices have infinitely more significance. What we do really does "echo in eternity." And that raises meaning, purpose and behavior to a completely different level.
                          If that were real, it would of course be important what exactly would cause people to go to heaven and hell. I've been thinking today about starting a thread to discuss the fact that evangelical Christians blatantly misread the bible in that regard. Jesus' lengthy depiction of the final judgment in Matthew 25 depicts charitable deeds as being the thing that cause people to get eternal life or eternal rejection. All of the other 20 passages in the NT that speak about the final judgement are consistent with that, and not a single one of them depicts a final judgement that is based on whether a person is a Christian, or depicts faith as being the criteria of the judgement, or depicts whether one has prayed the sinners prayer and let Jesus into your heart as being important.
                          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by sylas View Post
                            That's normal. What's not so normal -- and is in my opinion just rude and destructive of constructive discussion between disagreements -- is to add into the mix the claim that the ones who disagree must be dishonest. There's no need for that, it adds nothing to discussion, and it makes it much harder to make any progress in mutual understanding.

                            Sorry, but I just had to say that. It stuck out to me like a sore thumb earlier in this thread, and it is something that turns me off in a major way, and makes it harder for me to engage with civility and respect, which is my normal objective.

                            Cheers -- sylas
                            Sometimes the truth hurts. Sure I could tiptoe around the matter, and attempt to make it palatable, but it is what it is.
                            Last edited by Adrift; 03-28-2017, 07:36 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              Well I know what you've been posting in this thread, and several times you have suggested death as a supposed motivation to be nihilistic.
                              No, I'm just wondering why you guys don't accept and embrace Existential Nihilism as defined in the OP. It seems to fit your world view perfectly.

                              If that were real, it would of course be important what exactly would cause people to go to heaven and hell.
                              Well I'm glad you agree that it would make our choices more significant.

                              I've been thinking today about starting a thread to discuss the fact that evangelical Christians blatantly misread the bible in that regard. Jesus' lengthy depiction of the final judgment in Matthew 25 depicts charitable deeds as being the thing that cause people to get eternal life or eternal rejection. All of the other 20 passages in the NT that speak about the final judgement are consistent with that, and not a single one of them depicts a final judgement that is based on whether a person is a Christian, or depicts faith as being the criteria of the judgement, or depicts whether one has prayed the sinners prayer and let Jesus into your heart as being important.
                              One thing is certain, no matter what your view of works are, faith is just as important, if not more so. Without faith it is impossible to please God, and as Jesus said:

                              Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                                Sometimes the truth hurts. Sure I could tiptoe around the matter, and attempt to make it palatable, but it is what it is, and I'm tired of pretending that it ain't.
                                Crude rudeness here doesn't hurt anything except your own capacity to engage in useful discussion. It's ugly, but not actually hurtful in any other sense.

                                I'm not just trying some kind of return attack for slurs on integrity and honesty. But honestly, you're kidding yourself if you think this kind of nonsense "hurts". Goodbye. Good riddance. I'll stick to discussing the subject with people who are able to keep to the subject matter and argue for propositions without derailing into presumptions that their confidence on truth of their position necessitates dishonesty on those who don't accept their arguments.

                                More generally for those who are may be interested in a way forward. I think part what makes the substance of discussion here tricky is that the philosophical terms we are using are not well captured by a short definition. The literature on this is enormous with lots of subtle distinctions. As I understand the terms, I'm existentialist, but not nihilist. One does not simply follow from the other; and a quick review of philosophical literature shows this pretty clearly IMO. I'm a neophyte in philosophy, though.

                                Cheers -- sylas

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