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Existential Nihilism & Atheism...

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  • #16
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Definition:



    Doesn't existential nihilism follow naturally from atheism? That mankind, ultimately, is insignificant with no intrinsic meaning or purpose? If not, why not?
    What is intrinsic is the genetic predisposition to survive, which is common to all living creatures, as opposed to a faith-based assertion based upon some sort of unverifiable divine teleology.

    As for meaning and purpose they are subjective values deriving from our instinctive need to nurture our young and from the values of the society in which we live plus our own personal interests and enthusiasms.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Well no adding God adds a transcendent and universal meaning to humankind,
      So does the Blue Fairy. She grants wishes.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        I believe that were an atheist honest with himself, then yes, his worldview ought to naturally lead to nihilism. I know if I were an atheist, I definitely would be a nihilist
        So, if you were an atheist, all honest atheists would have to agree with you.
        Last edited by Doug Shaver; 03-26-2017, 11:21 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Doesn't existential nihilism follow naturally from atheism?
          No.

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          If not, why not?
          Because atheism is not defined in terms of any source of meaning. It is defined solely in terms of the existence of gods. You may assume that the God you believe in is the only possible source of meaning, but many of us reject that assumption.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
            So, if you were an atheist, all honest atheists would have to agree with you.
            That's not what I said, but thanks for playing.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              That's not what I said
              Not in so many words. But you did say that any honest atheist should be a nihilist, and you did say that if you were an atheist, you would be a nihilist. How would it be possible, then, for an honest atheist to disagree with you if you were an atheist?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                No.


                Because atheism is not defined in terms of any source of meaning. It is defined solely in terms of the existence of gods. You may assume that the God you believe in is the only possible source of meaning, but many of us reject that assumption.
                That is not the point Doug, again back to the definition:

                Existential nihilism is the philosophical theory that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. With respect to the universe, existential nihilism posits that a single human or even the entire human species is insignificant, without purpose and unlikely to change in the totality of existence.


                It does not say that we can't invent subjective meaning or value. So as an atheist do you believe that humans have intrinsic meaning or value? If so, what?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  To me that sentence is gobblygook. You'll have to unpack what you think you mean by "transcendent and universal meaning" for me to try to understand what you're getting at, since I see that as a self-contradiction. Like BP I reject the claim that there can be such a thing as "intrinsic" or "objective" meaning. Meaning is something that is assigned to things by intelligent beings, something can't have meaning in and of itself.
                  You know exactly what I mean, I thought you were some kind of ex Christian know it all! When God assigns meaning or value it is certain and immutable and not dependent on fickle human nature, varieties or opinion. It transcends those considerations.

                  I wonder if, perhaps, you are concerned about the idea that one day human kind might die out and cease to exist. Because you add "and a God could insure our ultimate survival". Is the idea that you as a person struggle to find a sense of meaning in humanity's existence given the idea that we might one day all die?
                  It is because God is in a position to see His ends met. The survival of human beings. So He assigns value, and guarantees the survival of those He values and loves.

                  Well it would thwart all purposes and goals that everyone currently in existence has, and it would also remove all meaning because you would be removing all the intelligent creatures that assign meaning to things.
                  So like my definition in the OP stated, in totality we as a species are insignificant. So I guess you would agree with Existential Nihilism.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    When God assigns meaning or value it is certain and immutable and not dependent on fickle human nature, varieties or opinion. It transcends those considerations.
                    So that makes God essentially like a human who's opinions don't change. i.e. no more significant than any particular human when finding things meaningful or valuable to them.

                    So like my definition in the OP stated, in totality we as a species are insignificant.
                    I don't find that a statement that makes sense. It is intelligent beings who assign meaning, and find things significant. So when you say "we as a species are insignificant" you need to add to who - who or what is the intelligent being that is viewing our species as insignificant? You're misusing a subjective term as if it were objective.
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      That is not the point Doug, again back to the definition:

                      Existential nihilism is the philosophical theory that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. With respect to the universe, existential nihilism posits that a single human or even the entire human species is insignificant, without purpose and unlikely to change in the totality of existence.
                      The basic problem with that definition, as phrased, is that conflates "no intrinsic meaning" with "meaningless". But they aren't the same thing.

                      Once more, with feeling. A common position (but by no means the exclusive position; atheists are extremely diverse) is that meaning is inherently subjective, and not intrinsic. That's my position. This is emphatically not saying that there's no meaning... but rather that meaning varies depending on who is assigning that meaning. There is no one arbiter of meaning, from my perspective. Similarly... from my perspective one cannot saying a thing is "significant" or "insignificant" without identifying someone who is finding (not not finding) significance in a thing.

                      It does not say that we can't invent subjective meaning or value. So as an atheist do you believe that humans have intrinsic meaning or value? If so, what?
                      Speaking for myself... humans don't have "intrinsic" meaning or value, but they DO have intrinsic qualities (such as consciousness, or capacities for love, passion, introspection, etc) which in turn become a basis for value and meaning and worth in the subjective perspective of other conscious thinking beings.

                      There are some basic commonalities in humanity that mean some things are considered significant by just about everyone. From my perspective this does not make the significance itself "intrinsic", but it does seem to be intrinsic to humans that we nearly all find significance in things like love, relationships, beauty, etc. What's intrinsic then, is that there are some things we nearly all consider to be significant.

                      There seems to be a pretty serious mind block going on here which makes it really really difficult for you to grasp this perspective. But I still recommend it as well worth trying hard to get your head around a view you don't share. You'll perhaps understand some of us a bit better, which is a worthwhile achievement. (Of course, "worthwhile" being subjective as well. I am pretty sure most people here would consider it worthwhile to have a better understanding views one does not share!)

                      As a lighthearted and engaging example that may be useful or at least fun for pretty much anyone.... I'd like to introduce a really beautiful and excellent graduation address, given at the University of Western Australia by comedian musician and atheist Tim Minchin.

                      It's really well worth the time to listen to it. I just love the way the university vice chancellor keeps cracking up with laughter behind the speaker.

                      Quite apart from being funny and wise, it's a nice insight into how someone can live a meaningful life of love and laughter and fullness and passion without depending on some universal or eternal externally imposed "meaning".

                      Here's a sample:
                      Source: Tim Minchin, being inspirational

                      Arts degrees are awesome. And they help you find meaning where there is none. And let me assure you, there is none. Don’t go looking for it. Searching for meaning is like searching for a rhyme scheme in a cookbook: you won’t find it and you’ll bugger up your soufflé.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Minchin expresses things a bit differently to the way I have done. He explicitly accepts life and existence as "meaningless"; though he also follows this up by...
                      However, I am no nihilist. I am not even a cynic. I am, actually, rather romantic.

                      Enough. Here it is... it's 18 minutes but I am pretty sure some of you will listen right through and enjoy doing so. I've done so a couple of times!



                      Cheers -- sylas

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        So that makes God essentially like a human who's opinions don't change. i.e. no more significant than any particular human when finding things meaningful or valuable to them.
                        But human opinions do change, and God is in the position to see His opinions enacted. What He finds valuable will remain valuable and certain.

                        I don't find that a statement that makes sense. It is intelligent beings who assign meaning, and find things significant. So when you say "we as a species are insignificant" you need to add to who - who or what is the intelligent being that is viewing our species as insignificant? You're misusing a subjective term as if it were objective.
                        No, I'm using it according to the definition in the OP. But if it really only a matter of our opinion, then one group, like adults or Nazis could find another group, like babies or Jews to be insignificant - to be disposed of at will. But Star I still don't know why you are not embracing Existential Nihilism - it seems to fit perfectly with our beliefs.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                          Not in so many words. But you did say that any honest atheist should be a nihilist, and you did say that if you were an atheist, you would be a nihilist. How would it be possible, then, for an honest atheist to disagree with you if you were an atheist?
                          You're not really making any sense to me Doug. How I stated it initially as how I intended it.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by sylas View Post
                            The basic problem with that definition, as phrased, is that conflates "no intrinsic meaning" with "meaningless". But they aren't the same thing.

                            Once more, with feeling. A common position (but by no means the exclusive position; atheists are extremely diverse) is that meaning is inherently subjective, and not intrinsic. That's my position. This is emphatically not saying that there's no meaning... but rather that meaning varies depending on who is assigning that meaning. There is no one arbiter of meaning, from my perspective. Similarly... from my perspective one cannot saying a thing is "significant" or "insignificant" without identifying someone who is finding (not not finding) significance in a thing.



                            Speaking for myself... humans don't have "intrinsic" meaning or value, but they DO have intrinsic qualities (such as consciousness, or capacities for love, passion, introspection, etc) which in turn become a basis for value and meaning and worth in the subjective perspective of other conscious thinking beings.

                            There are some basic commonalities in humanity that mean some things are considered significant by just about everyone. From my perspective this does not make the significance itself "intrinsic", but it does seem to be intrinsic to humans that we nearly all find significance in things like love, relationships, beauty, etc. What's intrinsic then, is that there are some things we nearly all consider to be significant.

                            There seems to be a pretty serious mind block going on here which makes it really really difficult for you to grasp this perspective. But I still recommend it as well worth trying hard to get your head around a view you don't share. You'll perhaps understand some of us a bit better, which is a worthwhile achievement. (Of course, "worthwhile" being subjective as well. I am pretty sure most people here would consider it worthwhile to have a better understanding views one does not share!)

                            As a lighthearted and engaging example that may be useful or at least fun for pretty much anyone.... I'd like to introduce a really beautiful and excellent graduation address, given at the University of Western Australia by comedian musician and atheist Tim Minchin.

                            It's really well worth the time to listen to it. I just love the way the university vice chancellor keeps cracking up with laughter behind the speaker.
                            I listened to Tim, and I really don't see how he or you can escape existential nihilism. He says that it is not nihilist, but a romantic, and his idea of romance? That you will soon be dead! So fill up your life with whatever floats your boat. I'm sorry Sylas this is neither insightful nor original. But I did enjoy his wit.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              But human opinions do change, and God is in the position to see His opinions enacted. What He finds valuable will remain valuable and certain.
                              More to the point, we were created and intended for a purpose, and while one can find different purposes for, say, a fork or a chair, or whatever else (put them in a gallery, hang them on the wall, use them as construction tools, etc.), their true value will always be based in what they were initially intended and created for.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                                More to the point, we were created and intended for a purpose, and while one can find different purposes for, say, a fork or a chair, or whatever else (put them in a gallery, hang them on the wall, use them as construction tools, etc.), their true value will always be based in what they were initially intended and created for.
                                Exactly...
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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