Literal-Figurative Switcheroo (LFS)

[Rainbow Brite]

What argument? The one saying that whatever is temporary is not cruel? Or the one saying that whatever is justified because there's a good reason for it is not cruel? Or some other argument?

The same argument illustrated in the Book of Job, that if we can get through adversity in life while keeping the faith and not cursing God, God will reward us with an everlasting life and glory.

As I said, in biblical comparison, God allowing us adversity in this life, with reward of eternal life in the end, is no more cruel than nature giving us nightmares, only to wake up and forget all about them and have a happy day.

Or for example, if I send you an envelope with a billion dollars in it and you get a papercut while opening the envelope, are you really going to complain that I'm cruel for giving you the envelope?

[Doug Shaver]

Or for example, if I send you an envelope with a billion dollars in it and you get a papercut while opening the envelope, are you really going to complain that I'm cruel for giving you the envelope?

You're saying a paper cut is not cruel?

OK. On that, you and I can agree.

[Rainbow Brite]

You're saying a paper cut is not cruel?

OK. On that, you and I can agree.

Then if as a baby God told Israelites to chop your head off and He later gave you a glorious eternal life, that would compare to getting a papercut in exchange for a billion dollars.

[JimL]

Then if as a baby God told Israelites to chop your head off and He later gave you a glorious eternal life, that would compare to getting a papercut in exchange for a billion dollars.

And the murderer would be no different than the muslim terrorists who believe they would be rewarded with an eternal glorious life for killing themselves as well as thousands of others because they believed it was Gods wish. Do you think they got their eternal reward, or do you think it was a stupid and cruel act?

[Rainbow Brite]

And the murderer...

Killer as commanded by God, not murderer. Continue...

...would be no different than the muslim terrorists who believe they would be rewarded with an eternal glorious life for killing themselves as well as thousands of others because they believed it was Gods wish. Do you think they got their eternal reward, or do you think it was a stupid and cruel act?

Of course they are different, Israelites received direct commands of God through the prophets. But then Jesus left us with:

Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

However, God also uses heathen to punish His people when they go wrong, for example He raised up Babylon against the Jews. But then Babylon was punished by Persia for its own sins and excesses. Same with Rome.

So can God raise Muslims up against naughty Christians as a warning to get their act together, as He raised Babylon up against the Jews? Of course. Might Muslims be punished for their own sins and excesses as Babylon was punished? Of course. So there is no guarantee of any glory for Babylonians, Romans, Muslims, etc.

But again, our focus is on the innocent victims caught in the crossfire, and back to that point, to reiterate, if God told Israelites to chop your head off and you were innocent, and He later gave you a glorious eternal life, that would compare to getting a papercut in exchange for a billion dollars.

Thus God is ultimately benevolent, even if He doesn't seem so in the heat of the moment.

[Kane]

To my fellow skeptics:

I would suggest letting go of conversation with Rainbow Brite. He has demonstrated time and again that both he and his god are psychopathic, and shown no sign of being able to reason otherwise.

Continuing to argue your points with him will simply increase his level of obstinacy and, possibly, your level of frustration.

So, I would encourage you to stop wasting your time attempting to reason with Rainbow Brite; he's not equiped to handle the responsibility.

This is my personal opinion for you to take or leave as you will.

Sincerely,
C31

[Rainbow Brite]

Attachment 84468

[fm93]

And the murderer would be no different than the muslim terrorists who believe they would be rewarded with an eternal glorious life for killing themselves as well as thousands of others because they believed it was Gods wish. Do you think they got their eternal reward, or do you think it was a stupid and cruel act?

Actually, your analogy is far from the truth. The Israelites were commanded to kill the enemies to defend themselves. The Amalekites, for example, had a history of unprovoked aggression against Israel, and it was a case of do-or-die for Israel--if they sat back and did nothing, they would have been mercilessly slaughtered.

[JimL]

Actually, your analogy is far from the truth. The Israelites were commanded to kill the enemies to defend themselves. The Amalekites, for example, had a history of unprovoked aggression against Israel, and it was a case of do-or-die for Israel--if they sat back and did nothing, they would have been mercilessly slaughtered.

You don't think that in their own minds the terrorists believe they are defending themselves and doing what they are commanded to do by their God? You don't think that their belief in their particular God and his wishes are not involved in their own minds?
On the second point, the Israelites had a history of their own of unprovoked attack since it was their priority all along in accordance with the word of their God to take possession of the lands that their God promised to hand over to them.

[Doug Shaver]

Then if as a baby God told Israelites to chop your head off and He later gave you a glorious eternal life, that would compare to getting a papercut in exchange for a billion dollars.

There are cruel ways to behead a baby and non-cruel ways to do it. Whatever happens to the baby after the beheading makes no difference, in my judgment.

[Doug Shaver]

So, I would encourage you to stop wasting your time attempting to reason with Rainbow Brite; he's not equiped to handle the responsibility.

This is my personal opinion for you to take or leave as you will.

I agree that any attempt to change his mind is a waste of time. I'd like to let the lurkers see, though, what kinds of conclusions can follow from certain presuppositions.

[Rainbow Brite]

There are cruel ways to behead a baby and non-cruel ways to do it. Whatever happens to the baby after the beheading makes no difference, in my judgment.

Your getting a billion dollars made a difference as to not worrying about your papercut, what's the difference?

You are willing to take a paper cut for a billion dollars, so wouldn't you agree to having someone slowly cut through your neck with a plastic knife for a few days if it meant being raised up living a glorious eternal afterlife? What's a billion dollars or even your your head, compared to living forever and seeing all your dead parents and children and loved ones again? Nothing.

Anyway, what are you guys trying to change my mind into doing? Shall I adopt the suicidal position of atheism that has faith in eternal death rather than eternal life? No thanks.

[Doug Shaver]

Your getting a billion dollars made a difference as to not worrying about your papercut,

I never said that.

You are willing to take a paper cut for a billion dollars

I said a paper cut was not cruel. The billion dollars had nothing to do with that assessment.

so wouldn't you agree to having someone slowly cut through your neck with a plastic knife for a few days if it meant being raised up living a glorious eternal afterlife?

Maybe I would, but cutting my neck with a plastic knife for a few days would be an act of cruelty regardless of what happened to me afterward.

What's a billion dollars or even your your head, compared to living forever and seeing all your dead parents and children and loved ones again? Nothing.

What you're suggesting is that it might be rational for me to endure some cruelty if the payback is good enough. I am not disputing that.

[JimL]

Killer as commanded by God, not murderer. Continue...



Of course they are different, Israelites received direct commands of God through the prophets. But then Jesus left us with:

Perhaps the Israelites believed they got direct commands from God, as you believe they did, but their beliefs are no more assured to be true than the poison poured into the porches of believing Muslims ears. Thats the dilemma with religion, it is a psychological tool that can be used for either good or evil

Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Well, apparently Jesus/God wasn't very persuasive, neither to the Christians.

However, God also uses heathen to punish His people when they go wrong, for example He raised up Babylon against the Jews. But then Babylon was punished by Persia for its own sins and excesses. Same with Rome.

Of course that is the nature of God driven wars, when you lose it is always to a heathen, and since God could not possibly lose unless it was on purpose, then their loss and suffering must be do to their particular Gods punishment of them.

So can God raise Muslims up against naughty Christians as a warning to get their act together, as He raised Babylon up against the Jews? Of course. Might Muslims be punished for their own sins and excesses as Babylon was punished? Of course. So there is no guarantee of any glory for Babylonians, Romans, Muslims, etc.

Or Christians! The same could be said of any particular God.

But again, our focus is on the innocent victims caught in the crossfire, and back to that point, to reiterate, if God told Israelites to chop your head off and you were innocent, and He later gave you a glorious eternal life, that would compare to getting a papercut in exchange for a billion dollars.

Sure, but we are not talking about comparisons here, even if your analogy had any truth to it, it wouldn't make Gods original act of chopping someone's innocent head off any less the cruel and evil act that it was.

Thus God is ultimately benevolent, even if He doesn't seem so in the heat of the moment.

Whether or not God makes up for his evil act a thousandfold, it does not erase the fact that evil also pertains to his nature.

[fm93]

You don't think that in their own minds the terrorists believe they are defending themselves and doing what they are commanded to do by their God?

But the US wasn't directly threatening their lives. The two lands had been ignoring each other for the most part. In the case of the Israelites and Amalekites, the Amalekites wouldn't stop harassing and attacking the Israelites.

On the second point, the Israelites had a history of their own of unprovoked attack since it was their priority all along in accordance with the word of their God to take possession of the lands that their God promised to hand over to them.

Completely false. The Amalekites were nomads. They didn't have a land for the Israelites to attack.