Was primordal man Conscious as we are?

[mickiel]

We cannot be Conscious of, what we are not conscious of. In Matt. 24:50, Jesus talks about the principle of " Awareness", about things comming and occuring that humans willnot be aware of, or Conscious of. These are " Blindspots in humanity", things we are not Conscious of. We can live our whole lives and not be Conscious of things. Its no giant leap in understanding that God is able to create whole races of humans whom he does not allow them to be Conscious of things.

Romans 12:3, latter part of verse;" But to think so as to have sound judgement, as God has " Allotted" to each a " Measure" of faith. Here we see God " Allotts", or portions out sound thinking to people. In 2Corinth. 3:5;" Not that we are adequate in ourselves to think about things as comming from our own minds, our adequacy comes from God." Or our Consciousness comes from God.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

[apostoli]

Hello mickiel,

In my view, Adam and Eve were Conscious after God blew into them the breath of Life

Well Adam did become a "living soul" once God breathed into the dust God had molded. Eve on the other hand had a different coming into existence according to the scriptures.

but they were not Conscious of Good and Evil until after they ate from the tree of the Knowledge of both. Before they ate, they were not even Conscious of being naked. After they ate, now they are aware of these two ways of being.

OK

Now the fruits of Knowledge will produce, through them, civilized humanity. And Egypt was the first formalization of that in our history. So yes, Africa was the cradle of civilization.

If urbaisation, agriculture & writing are the benchmark then Sumer (Jemdet Nasr) followed by Early Dynastic Egypt. There were other civiliations that existed even earlier further east, but they are not known to have writing.

As I was checking my facts (schooldays memory) I discovered the Incas had an elaborate civilisation but didn't have writing. They used a thing called a quipu (bundled knotted strings), which is understood to store numeric data. Nobody knows how to read them now. Who knows, maybe it is some binary type code.

If Primordal man was Conscious, they would have produced Civilization, they had more than enough time. Yet, through all their years on earth, they never became civilizied, they basically stayed the same.

The Australian aborigine has been on this continent for at least 40,000 (maybe 50,000) years. Neanderthals were still roaming Europe around then. Like the Neanderthals the Australian aborigine never develop "civilisation" as usually defined.

Until white settlement the Australian aborigine were nomadic hunter gatherers and organised into family groups. They didn't even have the concept of a village. No agriculture. No writing. However, they did have abstract art, song, dance, their own technology, oral tradition, complex laws etc.

The only reason I can see for that, is that they were not conscious beings, as we are.

Australian aborigines with a change of habit (civilising) have proved as sentient as anyone else on the planet.

But let me go into Consciousness and the scripture.

First you'll have to adequately define which "consciousness" you'd have scripture reveal.

I'd define the scriptural viewpoint as...

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of [God] from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and deity.

Rom 2:14-15 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them.

Peace

[mickiel]

Hello mickiel,

First you'll have to adequately define which "consciousness" you'd have scripture reveal.

I'd define the scriptural viewpoint as...

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of [God] from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and deity.

Rom 2:14-15 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them.

Peace

Well yes, I can accept these. The invisible things surely describes Consciousness, because its an invisible spirit that has no location within the body. Col.1:16 hints on it as well, all things " Invisible were created by him", thus our Consciousness was formed and given by God. vs.17 states that he " Holds all these things together", meaning he is the author of them, and the substainer of our Consciousness. 1Corinth.12:11 tells how the Spirit of God Distributes things into us, or into our Consciousness.

It is then possible for a human to have " Two Spirits of God", one, the spirit " In man", which all humans have which is consciousness, and two-" the Annointed Spirit of Conversion", which God gives to the chosen.

And Primordal man had neither.

Peace.

[apostoli]

Well yes, I can accept these. The invisible things surely describes Consciousness, because its an invisible spirit that has no location within the body.

If it has no location within the body (external to you) then it is not a part of you, and therefore you don't have it.

See...

Zech 12:1 "The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him"

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.

Pro 20:26-27 A wise king sifts out the wicked, And brings the threshing wheel over them. The spirit of a man is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all the inner depths of a man's heart {ie: it is our personal consciousness that condemns or acquits us before God}.

Col.1:16 hints on it as well, all things " Invisible were created by him", thus our Consciousness was formed and given by God.

Based on Col 1:16 some groups of Arians way back when believed that Jesus created the holy Spirit, but if the text is taken too literally you would have the Son creating the Father. Not a grand idea to exaggerate scripture.

Imu we were made through the Son, and as consciousness was inherent to mankinds design it was created in us (not external to us).

vs.17 states that he " Holds all these things together", meaning he is the author of them, and the substainer of our Consciousness.

Does a person who goes against the natural laws have consciousness? (Rom 1:18-22)

1Corinth.12:11 tells how the Spirit of God Distributes things into us, or into our Consciousness.

Have a full read of 1 Cor:12:1-11.

It is then possible for a human to have " Two Spirits of God" , one, the spirit " In man" , which all humans have which is consciousness, and two-" the Annointed Spirit of Conversion", which God gives to the chosen.

Romans 8 says we have to get rid of the spirit of man (the carnal mind) and accept the Spirit, the spirit of Christ and the spirit of God.

And Primordal man had neither.

According to A.Paul few of modern man have the Spirit, the spirit of Christ and the spirit of God, but most have the spirit of man.

Peace.

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=apostoli;3038910]

If it has no location within the body (external to you) then it is not a part of you, and therefore you don't have it.

QUOTE]

By no location I mean it is not in a specific area. Like in your head, or in your arm, or in your chest. There is no specific location in the body for a Spirit. Its just not.

Peace.

[apostoli]

Hello mickiel,

By no location I mean it is not in a specific area. Like in your head, or in your arm, or in your chest. There is no specific location in the body for a Spirit. Its just not.

I don't consider "consciousness" as a Spirit entity. Rather I see the Spirit as invigorating our "consciousness".

Notice that 1 of the spirits of Isaiah 11:2 is heart felt and the 6 others are intellectual...

1) Spirit of the YHWH,
2) Spirit of wisdom,
3) Spirit of understanding,
4) Spirit of counsel,
5) Spirit of power,
6) Spirit of knowledge,
7) Spirit of the fear of the Lord.

In the OT & NT there is an emphasis on the "heart" driving the "mind". Consider Ezekiel 36:26 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh." (NIV) - cp. Ez 11:19; 18:31

________________

I do not see that Spirit in Primordal man.

Is your viewpoint of consciousness what most would refer to as soul?

Peace

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=apostoli;

Is your viewpoint of consciousness what most would refer to as soul?

Peace[/QUOTE]

Greetings Apostoli,

I don't know, it could be, I don't complettely understand what the bible means as a " Soul." In some places it the soul seems to refer to the physical body, as in the soul that sins shall die. But in others it refers to the soul as something that is seperate from the body, as in fear him who is able to kill both body and soul, seperating them. So I don't really know about the real meaning of the soul, it is just not yet clear to me.

I think Consciousness is really not the soul, but a Spirit within the soul, if the soul is the body. But if the soul is not the body, then yes, its possible it could be our Consciousness. My gut feeling is that the soul is just not clear enough to nail down what it means.

Peace.

[mickiel]

One would wonder why God created Primordal man, since he does all things for a reason. Was it to be a type of testing ground for the advent of humans being created in the future with Consciousness? Does he plan on ressurecting all of them at some future time and giving them consciousness? Or do they have no more future at all?

These are questions I would love an answer to, but just don't have them, only speculation. I tend to lean toward " A testing ground", a long period of God observing humans without Consciousness, before he gives it to them.

And I want to go into that Theory.

Peace.

[apostoli]

Hi mickiel

Is your viewpoint of consciousness what most would refer to as soul?

I don't know, it could be, I don't complettely understand what the bible means as a " Soul." In some places it the soul seems to refer to the physical body, as in the soul that sins shall die. But in others it refers to the soul as something that is seperate from the body, as in fear him who is able to kill both body and soul, seperating them. So I don't really know about the real meaning of the soul, it is just not yet clear to me.

You are not alone in not really knowing the real meaning of the soul. I presume you have had a read of wikipedia on Soul, opinions abound.

I think Consciousness is really not the soul, but a Spirit within the soul, if the soul is the body. But if the soul is not the body, then yes, its possible it could be our Consciousness. My gut feeling is that the soul is just not clear enough to nail down what it means.

Just thinking aloud...

I think texts like 1 Thess 5:23 give us a pointer "Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." Imu, when associating A.Paul use of the words "spirit, soul, body" with other scripture, he is saying heart+mind+body=whole person, thus "may everthing you feel, think and do be blameness". So I think "soul" is our mind=consciousness.

You note Mt 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul". I'm of the opinion that something persists after our death, but I don't perceive it as a "conscious" entity (cp. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6; Ps 115:17;) but as one asleep. Physiologically, every cell in our bodies is replaced every seven years, we go from baby, to child, to adolescent, to adult and then end in old age, but the one thing that remains a relative constant is "mind", so I again think "mind" is "soul". To use a computer metaphor "our hard-disk".

Then we have Gen 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" which would indicate that it is the whole person that is the soul. But given other scripture that says that man returns to dust and the spirit (breathe of God) returns to God, I think Gen 2:7 is a reference to the activation of our rationality.

Consider: Micah 6:7 "Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, [or] with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn [for] my transgression, the fruit of my body [for] the sin of my soul?"

One would wonder why God created Primordal man, since he does all things for a reason. Was it to be a type of testing ground for the advent of humans being created in the future with Consciousness?

I've been doing some research on the Neanderthals. As more evidence is found amd more research done, in the last few years, the paleoanthropologists etc are becoming convinced that they were the same as us - they buried their dead (indicating religion), had music, had symbolic art (similar to some Western Australian aborigine rock art), an organised society, language etc. However, there is some dispute when these were developed.

Does he plan on ressurecting all of them at some future time and giving them consciousness? Or do they have no more future at all?

A more interesting question: Apart from Noah & his family, will anyone/thing born before the flood be resurrected? If not then that solves your dilemna, otherwise...

One novel paper I came across has the Neanderthals developing a soul/consciousness at some point. The fellow thinks that the Neanderthals were a different race (creation), and that now we know for sure that European Neanderthals (there were none in Africa) and Homo Sapiens out of Africa intermingled, Cain's wife was a Neanderthal. This solves for him where Cain found a wife (as A&E had yet to have other children) and the Gen 4:5 puzzel. If so then that solves your dilemna.

These are questions I would love an answer to, but just don't have them, only speculation.

Apart from scientific findings that are still being argued over, I guess all there is is speculation when it comes to things like the Neanderthals.

I tend to lean toward " A testing ground", a long period of God observing humans without Consciousness, before he gives it to them.

And I want to go into that Theory.

Well! If God is God, he had no need to test, he already knew all things. If he did do as you speculate it must have been for the benefit of someone (the angels?) But for what purpose?

Peace

[mickiel]

Well! If God is God, he had no need to test, he already knew all things. If he did do as you speculate it must have been for the benefit of someone (the angels?) But for what purpose?

Peace

Greetings Apostoli,

Well I think God does use testing at times on humans. He tested Abraham when he told him to sacrifice his son. To see what he would do. It was, as you say, for Abrahams benefit. He brought all the animals to Adam, " To see what he would name them." I mean he could have named them himself, but he was more interested in what this Consciousness he had made and put in this man would call them.

In this manner I mean testing, he created primordal man to see how they would respond to life with thier given instincts. And seemingly he studied them a very long time, I mean if this be true, what I am speculating.

Although God knows all things, he is dealing with very limited humans who do not know all things, so we have to go through all the changes that God already knows about. There must be some point in Gods awesome mind, that he does not concentrate on his predestined advance knowledge, but rather on the human moment, the human reaction at the time is of more importance to him.

Peace.

[apostoli]

Hi mickiel,

Well I think God does use testing at times on humans. He tested Abraham when he told him to sacrifice his son. To see what he would do. It was, as you say, for Abrahams benefit. He brought all the animals to Adam, " To see what he would name them." I mean he could have named them himself, but he was more interested in what this Consciousness he had made and put in this man would call them.

In this manner I mean testing, he created primordal man to see how they would respond to life with thier given instincts. And seemingly he studied them a very long time, I mean if this be true, what I am speculating.

Although God knows all things, he is dealing with very limited humans who do not know all things, so we have to go through all the changes that God already knows about. There must be some point in Gods awesome mind, that he does not concentrate on his predestined advance knowledge, but rather on the human moment, the human reaction at the time is of more importance to him.

One possibility is that the Neanderthal had consciousness but it needed to be developed.

We find something similar in the tale of Adam & Eve in the development of the knowledge of good and evil (man discovering envy, jealousy,greed and disobedience), and later with Cain's invention of appeasement religion.
___________

Just as an aside: I read something recently that appealed to me = "man's greatest invention was no language itself but the word why!"

Peace

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=mickiel;3040019

These are questions I would love an answer to, but just don't have them, only speculation. I tend to lean toward " A testing ground", a long period of God observing humans without Consciousness, before he gives it to them.

And I want to go into that Theory.

Peace.[/QUOTE]

In Isaiah 64:6;" For all of us become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like filthy garments; and all of us wither like a leaf, and our sins, like the wind, take us away." This is basic human nature, and I think one reason God first created Primordal man and gave him no consciousness. He wanted to first observe humans who " Didnot sin." Because without Consciousness, there can be no sin.

So God could focus on other things, instead of sin and Salvation. He could sort of" Work out the kinks in man", before he even creates conscious man. And plan future things accordingly.

And I want to continue on that.

Peace.

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=
So God could focus on other things, instead of sin and Salvation. He could sort of" Work out the kinks in man", before he even creates conscious man. And plan future things accordingly.

And I want to continue on that.

Peace.[/QUOTE]

The question of Primordal humans is an interesting one for sure, what did God have on his mind? Are they eligible for Salvation, or more like animals, never promised Salvation? They had no religion, no scriptures, no prophets that we know of, and perhaps no vist from God or Christ, so just what is the deal with them?

Well I think Consciousness is the key and holds the answer, beings that are not Conscious, are then not held accountable for what they do. God does not hold the lion quilty of murder, or the wolf quilty of killing, and I don't think Primordal humans were even judged.

And I want to continue on that.

Peace.

[apostoli]

The question of Primordal humans is an interesting one for sure, what did God have on his mind? Are they eligible for Salvation, or more like animals, never promised Salvation? They had no religion, no scriptures, no prophets that we know of, and perhaps no vist from God or Christ, so just what is the deal with them?

Well I think Consciousness is the key and holds the answer, beings that are not Conscious, are then not held accountable for what they do. God does not hold the lion quilty of murder, or the wolf quilty of killing, and I don't think Primordal humans were even judged.

And I want to continue on that.

Peace.

You are prone to make unsubstantiated statements, not a good look. To create a framework for discussion you need to justify your premises - all of which can be applied to various groups of modern man - which demonstrates their defects.

In your earlier posts you set Neanderthal as the lowest common denominator for "man".

Contrary to your blank statement that Primordal humans had no religion, studies and discoveries in the last few decades have revealed that Neanderthal at some stage commenced to formally bury their dead, which most experts say demonstrates a concept of "religion" - more particularly, not only consciousness of self, but consciousness of others and the external world.

Also, it has been demonstrated that "modern man" developed socially and lived for a considerable period of time in much the same way as the Neanderthals. The current speculation is that some technical break through occured to set "modern man" on its migration which led to their advancement.

I guess it could be argued that earlier societies had a consciousness of the natural world and possibly a concept of god/s, but saw these as detached from their daily lives (cp. the dreamtime of Australian aborigines); whereas "modern man" developed a concept of relational god/s - god/s who interacted with man for good or bad (cp. the Jin of middle east nomadic tribes). With urbanisation, collective thought may have given rise to formalised/ritualised religion.

We'll never know!

If we accept the biblical account that all things prior to the flood were obliterated - rather than developmental society, our world started from a relatively advanced point. It is interesting that apart from sacrifices to his God (in defiance to YHWH's instructions), the next thing Noah set about doing was to make wine (Genesis 9) and then we have another "fall" scenario.

Peace

[mickiel]

Greetings Apostoli,

I do not believe it requires Consciousness to bury something, cats bury their dung by instinct alone, and I think Primordal man did the same. Its more instinct for them, I don't think Consciousness, and certainly not religion.

Peace.