Was primordal man Conscious as we are?

[mickiel]

Just a note which I can build on i future posts. I have a problem with defining 'Consiousness' to try and justify this religious concept. Neanderthals and Early humans [Cro-Magnon] had attributes of 'Consciousness' that you listed though in a simpler form. Neanderthal temples have been found in caves, and jewelry, ornaments, and abstract symbols in the form of carvings and pictures. Burial ceramonies and the bones of elderly individuals showing healing of breaks and wounds indicate care by others in the community. The finds are similar to primative cultures we find in more isolated parts of the world today, and much like a community I visited in the Panama Darian about 50 years ago.

Well I don't question those things, I just question wether they were conscious of doing them.

Peace.

[mickiel]

Can you give a practical example?

Well signal learning ( or classical or Pavlovian conditioning) is the simplest example. If a light signal immediately followed by a puff of air through a rubber tube is directed at a persons eye about ten times, the eyelid, which previously blinked only to the putt of air, will begin to blink to the light signal alone, and this becomes more and more frequent as trials proceed. Subjects who have undergone this well known procedure of signal learning report that it has no conscious componant whatever.

Peace.

[apostoli]

Well signal learning ( or classical or Pavlovian conditioning) is the simplest example. If a light signal immediately followed by a puff of air through a rubber tube is directed at a persons eye about ten times, the eyelid, which previously blinked only to the putt of air, will begin to blink to the light signal alone, and this becomes more and more frequent as trials proceed. Subjects who have undergone this well known procedure of signal learning report that it has no conscious componant whatever.

Peace.

I think you have just defined religion and the man made concept of god! A reflex action towards thunder etc...

[mickiel]

I think you have just defined religion and the man made concept of god! A reflex action towards thunder etc...

Perhaps your just not ready for this.

Its advanced thinking.

Peace.

[shunyadragon]

Well I don't question those things, I just question whether they were conscious of doing them.

Peace.

Well, these things belong to the list that you indicate would mean they had consiousness. The had brains anatomically the same or similar to modern humans. They showed planing, cooperation, family social structure, and art work in caves and carvings. The fact that NEanderthals had temple caves with symbols, and ceremonial burial clearly indicates a consiousness of things that may be beyond the physical world, I seriously question the grounds that they would not have consiousness.

There are very similar primitive tribes in the isolated parts of the world that have cultures that exhibit human consiousness. The only reason I can see that you would try and argue this point is to justify your view of Adam in the Bible, and that is not sufficient base don the evidence we have.

There is an argument for a symbolic primal prehuman where human consciousness began,, but that would likely be 250,000 to more than a million years ago, and out of the Biblical time frame. As a theist I believe this is the case.

[mickiel]

Well, these things belong to the list that you indicate would mean they had consiousness. The had brains anatomically the same or similar to modern humans. They showed planing, cooperation, family social structure, and art work in caves and carvings. The fact that NEanderthals had temple caves with symbols, and ceremonial burial clearly indicates a consiousness of things that may be beyond the physical world, I seriously question the grounds that they would not have consiousness.
.

Well I disagree, temple caves with symbols is not a sign of consciousness. Burying of the dead is not a sign of consciousness. Art work is not a sign of consciousness, you simply do not understand what Consciousness is.

Peace.

[apostoli]

I did some research on what you call "signal learning". Gange in his experiments determined there are 8 ways in which humans learn. Signal learning being the most primitive - "ouch I struck my toe on a rock. That hurts!". Though some "learning" may become simply conditioned reaction=habit (auto-response whether there is threat or not), all require initial consciousness to establish associations!

1. Signal Learning (involuntary reponses) - The individual learns to make a general, diffuse response to a signal. Such was the classical conditioned response of Pavlov.
2. Stimulus-Response Learning (voluntary reponse) - The learner acquires a precise response to a discriminated stimulus.
3. Chaining - A chain of two or more stimulus-response connections is acquired.
4. Verbal Association - The learning of chains that are verbal.
5. Discrimination Learning - The individual learns to make different identifying responses to many different stimuli which may resemble each other in physical appearance.
6. Concept Learning - The learner acquires a capability of making a common response to a class of stimuli.
7. Rule Learning - A rule is a chain of two or more concepts.
8. Problem Solving - A kind of learning that requires the internal events usually called thinking.

____________

Whereas pain or emotion might be a co-ordinate of the nervous system, the association of pain (reaction) with an action is cogition = consciousness.

[apostoli]

Perhaps your just not ready for this.

Its advanced thinking.

Far from advanced....Advanced thinking, imo, is the meaning of ego eimi...not the what but the why.

[mickiel]

Far from advanced....Advanced thinking, imo, is the meaning of ego eimi...not the what but the why.

Oh it is advanced, just not in your view of it.

It is advanced.

Peace.

[shunyadragon]

Well I disagree, temple caves with symbols is not a sign of consciousness. Burying of the dead is not a sign of consciousness. Art work is not a sign of consciousness, you simply do not understand what Consciousness is.

Peace.

I believe I do. The things noted above are as much apart of human consiousnes as anything found in the primitive Stone Age Cultures today. Other things include

A sophisticated weapon made from a mammoth tusk with an air foil design, which requires training for one to use it properly.

Record keeping marks on a bone of the phases of the moon.

[shunyadragon]

I did some research on what you call "signal learning". Gange in his experiments determined there are 8 ways in which humans learn. Signal learning being the most primitive - "ouch I struck my toe on a rock. That hurts!". Though some "learning" may become simply conditioned reaction=habit (auto-response whether there is threat or not), all require initial consciousness to establish associations!

1. Signal Learning (involuntary reponses) - The individual learns to make a general, diffuse response to a signal. Such was the classical conditioned response of Pavlov.
2. Stimulus-Response Learning (voluntary reponse) - The learner acquires a precise response to a discriminated stimulus.
3. Chaining - A chain of two or more stimulus-response connections is acquired.
4. Verbal Association - The learning of chains that are verbal.
5. Discrimination Learning - The individual learns to make different identifying responses to many different stimuli which may resemble each other in physical appearance.
6. Concept Learning - The learner acquires a capability of making a common response to a class of stimuli.
7. Rule Learning - A rule is a chain of two or more concepts.
8. Problem Solving - A kind of learning that requires the internal events usually called thinking.

____________

Whereas pain or emotion might be a co-ordinate of the nervous system, the association of pain (reaction) with an action is cogition = consciousness.

All the things I mention demonstrate that ancient humans had consiousness as per your conditions above.

[mickiel]

All the things I mention demonstrate that ancient humans had consiousness as per your conditions above.

Not in my view they don't. Consciousness is not necessary for learning. If a light signal immediately followed by a puff of air through a rubber tube is directed at a persons eye about ten times, the eyelid, which previously blinked only to the puff of air, will begin to blink to the light signal alone. This has been proven through signal learning, or " Pavlovian conditioning, the eye unconsciously learned it. This learning has no conscious componant whatsoever, and it is labortory proven.

It is called " Associative Learning", and it does not use the Consciousness. This is how we learn everything, and we never use our Consciousness in learning. If a distinct kind of music is played while you are eating a particular delicious lunch, the next time you hear the music you will like its sounds slightly more and even have a little more saliva in your mouth. The music has become a signal for pleasure which mixes with your judgement. And the same is true for art or primitive painting We do things without being Conscious of doing them. Consciousness can actually reduce our ability to learn.

Learning is " Organic", rather than conscious. Learning is the nervous system and ability. Consciousness is not even necessary for thinking or reasoning, Consciousness is a " Spirit" that is in man. And Primordal man didnot have this Spirit.

Peace.

[mickiel]

Consciousness is a Spirit from God that he puts into every human since Adam. It is the " Image of God", meaning it is Life. It does not have a brain of its own, it has no body and no location within your body when God puts it in there. Consciousness is not in your brain, you just think its somewhere behind your eyes, because we peer " Outwardly."

Consciousness is the " Governor of our behavior", it organizeses our totality as human beings. The Consciousness gives us our sympathy and Identification with other living things. Our imagination, our religions, our Languages, Consciousness is the engine that drives us to all these things, and THEN our nervous systems take over. Consciousness is a much smaller part of our mental life than we are conscious of, because we cannot be conscious of what we are not conscious of.

Consciousness is a continuity, you can shut your eyes and try not to think, go to sleep yet Consciousness streams on. Its like asking a flashlight in a dark room to search around for something that does not have any light shinning upon it. The flashlight, since there is light in whatever direction it turns, would have to conclude that there is light everywhere. An so Consciousness can seem to pervade all mentality when actually it does not.

Peace.

[Vivian]

Consciousness is a Spirit from God that he puts into every human since Adam. It is the " Image of God", meaning it is Life. It does not have a brain of its own, it has no body and no location within your body when God puts it in there. Consciousness is not in your brain, you just think its somewhere behind your eyes, because we peer " Outwardly."

Consciousness is the " Governor of our behavior", it organizeses our totality as human beings. The Consciousness gives us our sympathy and Identification with other living things. Our imagination, our religions, our Languages, Consciousness is the engine that drives us to all these things, and THEN our nervous systems take over. Consciousness is a much smaller part of our mental life than we are conscious of, because we cannot be conscious of what we are not conscious of.

Consciousness is a continuity, you can shut your eyes and try not to think, go to sleep yet Consciousness streams on. Its like asking a flashlight in a dark room to search around for something that does not have any light shinning upon it. The flashlight, since there is light in whatever direction it turns, would have to conclude that there is light everywhere. An so Consciousness can seem to pervade all mentality when actually it does not.

Peace.

Indeed Consciousness is the Light of the World.

We though have been created or brought into being with a bestial consciousness. And actually, it is my belief that our existence is rooted in Genesis 1:1. So that at first we were darkness and void, but evolved in the subsequent days of creation to rock, to sea life, to plant life, to animal life, and eventually to the humanity we see in the world today.

What makes us different from everything else is consciousness - having the ability to reason, to think and chose, no longer being subject to our bestial nature or lower consciousness that just reacts according to programming or instinct.

And so our present consciousness has the ability to be free, to seek and Unite with God.

Thank you for sharing your insights, mickiel.

Shalom!

Viv

[mickiel]

Indeed Consciousness is the Light of the World.

We though have been created or brought into being with a bestial consciousness. And actually, it is my belief that our existence is rooted in Genesis 1:1. So that at first we were darkness and void, but evolved in the subsequent days of creation to rock, to sea life, to plant life, to animal life, and eventually to the humanity we see in the world today.

What makes us different from everything else is consciousness - having the ability to reason, to think and chose, no longer being subject to our bestial nature or lower consciousness that just reacts according to programming or instinct.

And so our present consciousness has the ability to be free, to seek and Unite with God.

Thank you for sharing your insights, mickiel.

Shalom!

Viv

Well thank you,

I have a great intrest in Consciousness, I believe it to be the " Image of God" the bible refers to us being created in. Yet I hold differening views than you in many areas I am discovering as we communicate. I do not believe in evolution, I do not mix creation with evolution, as you seem to do. You are suggesting that humans were created, then went into darkness and from that into evolution to rock, to sea, to plant then to animal life then to human again.

I disagree with that, we are not continuous with the idiot hierarchies of speechless apes.

But I do agree with you that humanity is like no other creation on earth, we are different mainly because of Consciousness.

Peace.