Was primordal man Conscious as we are?

[shunyadragon]

Hi Mickiel!

Language is what sets true humanity apart from the beasts. Which is why Adam, or the Human One is also called the Speaking One.

If you recall, in Genesis 1, YHWH Elohim created by 'Speaking', and so all that is in the image of God also creates by Speaking. Consider how Jesus is called the Word, or Logos, and also consider the teachings of the New Testament, especially of James, where we are taught to be conscious of our speaking - to recognize that we are creating with our words, and so be careful with our tongue.

Contemporary research has shown that some higher mammals have complex languages the vary within species such as in whales. A lone hump back whale was followed for several years singing a unique language apparently not understood by other whales. He was apparently the last of his tribe.

This is why what you refer to as primordal man did not have language.

Shalom!

Viv

Can you document this assertion?

[shunyadragon]

Hi mickiel -

In the tradition that I follow, we know that there is Unity behind all things, so we do not labor so much to differentiate between a them and a us, and thus understand there to be consciousness behind all of creation - moving multiplicity back towards Unity.

But, as you have pointed out, there is a difference in the level of Consciousness and so only man presently carries the image of God, which is evidenced in their ability for language.

You might recall that Adam's responsibility in the Garden included Naming, In Hebrew, Naming entails more than coming up with a collection of letters that designates who is what. Naming is giving an entity their attributes and powers, hence Adam Naming was creating via language. Within Higher languages such as Hebrew, the power or vibration behind the collection of letters is what determines the attributes and characters of the entity being Named.

And as all the exists has consciousness, all that exists has some form of communication. Dogs bark, cats meow, wolves howl, bulls snort, and even the primordal man of which you speak could certainly grunt and make other noises, so as to communicate with others. This communication though is at a lower level than the creative language (putting together differing sounds and vibrations, such as with the use of words) that is able to manifest through present day man, hence making Adam the Speaking One. We are able to put letters and sounds and vibrations together that result in creation, whether or not we are aware that we are creating.

So again, I would say that grunts and snorts - and certainly howling and whimpering - are all signs of consciousness, just a lesser consciousness, one that is bestial, meant to express life in relation to the individual self's survival, but not creation.

One has to also consider in this contemplation whales who have been shown to have language.

So yes, I agree with what you are sharing, but offer that it is more interconnected - more of a case of an interconnected flow or development instead of a them versus us - within the Unity behind all things.

Also understanding this, that we have been given language, means more is required of us. To whom much is given much is required.

Shalom!

Viv

What evidence do you have that primordial man only communicated in grunts and snorts, or whatever? Present evidence indicates they had vocal cords like us.

[shunyadragon]

Not in my view they don't. Consciousness is not necessary for learning. If a light signal immediately followed by a puff of air through a rubber tube is directed at a persons eye about ten times, the eyelid, which previously blinked only to the puff of air, will begin to blink to the light signal alone. This has been proven through signal learning, or " Pavlovian conditioning, the eye unconsciously learned it. This learning has no conscious componant whatsoever, and it is labortory proven.

It is called " Associative Learning", and it does not use the Consciousness. This is how we learn everything, and we never use our Consciousness in learning. If a distinct kind of music is played while you are eating a particular delicious lunch, the next time you hear the music you will like its sounds slightly more and even have a little more saliva in your mouth. The music has become a signal for pleasure which mixes with your judgement. And the same is true for art or primitive painting We do things without being Conscious of doing them. Consciousness can actually reduce our ability to learn.

Learning is " Organic", rather than conscious. Learning is the nervous system and ability. Consciousness is not even necessary for thinking or reasoning, Consciousness is a " Spirit" that is in man. And Primordal man didnot have this Spirit.

Peace.

This explanation fails to make a distinction between what we know of primate humans and Neanderthals and us concerning consciousness. The presence of temples, art work, and other evidence of social structure and behavior remains the same as primitive Stone Ages cultures today. You have failed to show anything that would distinguish them based on the evidence.

[shunyadragon]

When humans exist side by side each other for thousands of years and do not verbally communicate, that is a sure sign on no consciousness.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

What evidence do you have that they did not communicate?

At what point in human history are saying consciousness began?

[barnasha]

What evidence do you have that they did not communicate?

At what point in human history are saying consciousness began?

It makes you wonder things like this: are plants unconscious? They grow towards the light. Consciousness is a tricky subject. So is self-consciousness (which may be a better way to say what you referred to above as consciousness)

[shunyadragon]

It makes you wonder things like this: are plants unconscious? They grow towards the light. Consciousness is a tricky subject. So is self-consciousness (which may be a better way to say what you referred to above as consciousness)

No wonder at all. I am referring to modern humans (homo sapiens sapiens - 200,000 years at least), and ancestral humans (homo sapiens - 500,000 at least), and not hypothetical talking plants or mischievous microbes.

Not a tricky subject at all. All our ancestors going back a half a million years had our equivalent brain and vocal cords.

Again, at what point do you assert human consciousness began?

[mickiel]

What evidence do you have that they did not communicate?

At what point in human history are saying consciousness began?

I believe Consciousness began with Adam in Genesis 3:22, where Adam " Became like one of us", or a conscious human man . Simple deduction can tell us that before this, which includes primordal man, those humans were then not like God. Which I think means they were not conscious humans, not able to know good and evil.

Listen, not knowing the simple concept of good and evil, is an animal like existence. That is the evidence.

Peace.

[mickiel]

This explanation fails to make a distinction between what we know of primate humans and Neanderthals and us concerning consciousness. The presence of temples, art work, and other evidence of social structure and behavior remains the same as primitive Stone Ages cultures today. You have failed to show anything that would distinguish them based on the evidence.

You are too concerned with this posture of claiming that one has " Failed" to prove something. Failed is the premise you seek to impress, because showing failure is your desire in arguement. God said the man has " Become like one of us", Conscious of good and evil. All humans created prior to this had NOT become like them, Conscious beings able to discern. Its academic and really simple logic and reasoning.


Before this event, Adam and Eve didnot even know they were naked! All Primordal humans before them thus didnot know this simple thing. We can thus presume there was plenty other things they didnot know.

Because they were not Conscious of those things.

Peace.

[shunyadragon]

You are too concerned with this posture of claiming that one has " Failed" to prove something. Failed is the premise you seek to impress, because showing failure is your desire in arguement. God said the man has " Become like one of us", Conscious of good and evil. All humans created prior to this had NOT become like them, Conscious beings able to discern. Its academic and really simple logic and reasoning.


Before this event, Adam and Eve didnot even know they were naked! All Primordal humans before them thus didnot know this simple thing. We can thus presume there was plenty other things they didnot know.

Because they were not Conscious of those things.

Peace.

I do not believe you can presume at any point they did not know these things. For 500,000 years they had our basic brain, anatomy and vocal cords.

Then I will conclude about 500,000 years or more including Neandethals.

[mickiel]

I do not believe you can presume at any point they did not know these things. For 500,000 years they had our basic brain, anatomy and vocal cords.

Then I will conclude about 500,000 years or more including Neandethals.

The scripture is there for all to see, Adam " Became like God" in Gen. 3:22, in verse 21 God himself " Made garments of Skin" for Adam and his wife. God started the clothing industry through Adam, he started language in them, he started the ability to become aware of things consciously in them.

And we can know that he didNOT start these things in Primordal humans.

Peace.

[shunyadragon]

The scripture is there for all to see, Adam " Became like God" in Gen. 3:22, in verse 21 God himself " Made garments of Skin" for Adam and his wife. God started the clothing industry through Adam, he started language in them, he started the ability to become aware of things consciously in them.

And we can know that he did NOT start these things in Primordal humans.

Peace.

Possibly before 500,000 years ago, you may or may not be right. Then again I go by the evidence, and not a time interpretation of scripture as to when humans gained Consciousneess that would make us human.

[Vivian]

Contemporary research has shown that some higher mammals have complex languages the vary within species such as in whales. A lone hump back whale was followed for several years singing a unique language apparently not understood by other whales. He was apparently the last of his tribe.



Can you document this assertion?

Hello shunydragon!

I do not believe that the consciousness issue is as cut and dry, this and not that, as is being presented in this thread, but I do believe that there is evidence in earth's history and scripture which points to a difference in 'Adam' or in his consciousness or potential for awareness.

And because of this belief, coupled with the belief that given with this level of consciousness or awareness is the ability for language, I do not find it surprising that there is no evidence of language existing on earth before Sumarian, around 4300 BC, yet we have evidence of human like beings existing prior to this.

I do not have proof that there was no language prior to this, just know that there is no proof that there was.

And yes, I did note that whales also have language, which fits into my premise which was offered in my earlier posts on this thread.

To summarize, yes, I believe there has been an evolution or a change, influx, of consciousness on earth. I believe this consciousness can be marked by the creation of language, Adam - or mankind that began with Adam, being called the Speaking Ones in mystical Judaism.

I do not though limit this consciousness evolution to man, but consider that all of the earth is evolving towards higher consciousness, and so certainly other species could have language, eg whales.

Shalom!

Viv

[shunyadragon]

Hello shunydragon!

I do not believe that the consciousness issue is as cut and dry, this and not that, as is being presented in this thread, but I do believe that there is evidence in earth's history and scripture which points to a difference in 'Adam' or in his consciousness or potential for awareness.

And because of this belief, coupled with the belief that given with this level of consciousness or awareness is the ability for language, I do not find it surprising that there is no evidence of language existing on earth before Sumarian, around 4300 BC, yet we have evidence of human like beings existing prior to this.

I do not have proof that there was no language prior to this, just know that there is no proof that there was.

And yes, I did note that whales also have language, which fits into my premise which was offered in my earlier posts on this thread.

To summarize, yes, I believe there has been an evolution or a change, influx, of consciousness on earth. I believe this consciousness can be marked by the creation of language, Adam - or mankind that began with Adam, being called the Speaking Ones in mystical Judaism.

I do not though limit this consciousness evolution to man, but consider that all of the earth is evolving towards higher consciousness, and so certainly other species could have language, eg whales.

Shalom!

Viv

One correction of note, actually specific written languages is what have been observed ~ 6000 and 8000 thousand years in both the East and the West. Evidence for spoken language is anatomical (presence of vocal cords and advanced brain) and archeological in the presence of temples, ceremonial burial, elaborate artwork, designed weapons and tools, and cultural articles requiring communication which date back much older than the written language. which appears to originate with trade.


I have no problem that there is some time in in the past that humans developed a greater consciousness than the other higher primates naturally, but this likely took place at least greater than 200,000 years ago, and most likely much earlier. Relying on the Bible for any more recent time than this is appealing to religious belief and not the facts of anthropology and archeology.

[shunyadragon]

One correction of note, actually specific written languages is what have been observed ~ 6000 and 8000 thousand years in both the East and the West. Evidence for spoken language is anatomical (presence of vocal cords and advanced brain) and archeological in the presence of temples, ceremonial burial, elaborate artwork, designed weapons and tools, and cultural articles requiring communication which date back much older than the written language. which appears to originate with trade.


I have no problem that there is some time in in the past that humans developed a greater consciousness than the other higher primates naturally, but this likely took place at least greater than 200,000 years ago, and most likely much earlier. Relying on the Bible for any more recent time than this is appealing to religious belief and not the facts of anthropology and archeology.

One added note clothing dates to 30,000 years or more. Among the evidence is sowing needles made out of bone.

[mickiel]

Possibly before 500,000 years ago, you may or may not be right. Then again I go by the evidence, and not a time interpretation of scripture as to when humans gained Consciousneess that would make us human.

Well I understand that. I just view the bible as historically and Archaeologically relevant, I trust it, so I use it often. But this can be shown without the bible, Everyone agrees that the change from a hunting and gathering economy to a food producing economy by the domestication of plants and animals is the gigantic step that made civilization possible. But there is wide disagreement as to its causes and the means by which it all came all came about.

I believe God taught Adam Agricultre and Language, man didnot teach himself these things. They are just too complicated in my view. I have seen no Archaeological evidence that man taught himself these things.

Peace.