Was primordal man Conscious as we are?

[shunyadragon]

Well I understand that. I just view the bible as historically and Archaeologically relevant, I trust it, so I use it often. But this can be shown without the bible, Everyone agrees that the change from a hunting and gathering economy to a food producing economy by the domestication of plants and animals is the gigantic step that made civilization possible. But there is wide disagreement as to its causes and the means by which it all came all came about.

I believe God taught Adam Agriculture and Language, man did not teach himself these things. They are just too complicated in my view. I have seen no Archaeological evidence that man taught himself these things.

Peace.

There is a lot of archeological evidence of progression from hunter gatherer to agriculture. You have just failed to look. In China you have wild varieties of rice, millet and soybeans associated with the earliest finds, and a progressive increasing use of grains and selection of varieties for cultivation until you find clear evidence of cultivation and the spread of agriculture. Among the Native Americans you have examples of corn and flax at least. In Europe and the Middle East you have wheat and barley. There is no sudden appearance of agriculture in any one location and the spread outward. It happened after the retreat of the last glacier leaving large areas of prairie, grasslands and coastal lowlands where these grains were abundant, and climatic conditions were ideal for the development of agriculture. Another force that pushed humans to farm and herd, also likely the demise of Neanderthal, was the sharp decrease.in the large animal population like Mammoths. The Neanderthal were too specialized to hunt large animals.

The Bible says so does not explain the independent gradual development of agriculture among the Orientals and the Native Americans.

[mickiel]

The Bible says so does not explain the independent gradual development of agriculture among the Orientals and the Native Americans.

Well I think it does, In Gen. 4:2, Agriculture began there, not before. It was taught, not inherant in them.

Peace.

[mickiel]

I think Primordal man was a working model of intense planning for God, he wanted to " Mature humans somewhat before he even made them with Consciousness, his great gift." His image, his likeness. Simular I think to a rocket being fired into space on a mission, with a first and second stage firing. Primordal man was a first stage of Gods plan, fired into reality, and it shows Gods seriousness of his plan by his patience of studying Primordal man for so long. He certainly took his time, his patience in Heaven is legendary.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

[mickiel]

God is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, this means he is the complette cycle of Life. Primordal man was witheld Consciousness because that was the preplanned cycle of human life and existence. All the prior concerns that God had with giving humans this great gift of Consciousness, was worked out in Primordal man.

It was perfect in a sense; growing humans, breeding humans, who were not entrapped by lust, wars, competition, his law, religions, and the pressence of satan and his demons. As John the baptist " Prepared the way", Primordal humans prepared the way for us.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

[Vivian]

God is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, this means he is the complette cycle of Life. Primordal man was witheld Consciousness because that was the preplanned cycle of human life and existence. All the prior concerns that God had with giving humans this great gift of Consciousness, was worked out in Primordal man.

It was perfect in a sense; growing humans, breeding humans, who were not entrapped by lust, wars, competition, his law, religions, and the pressence of satan and his demons. As John the baptist " Prepared the way", Primordal humans prepared the way for us.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

Hi mickiel!

As previously shared, I too see something similar, although I would use different terms. In using consciousness to mean 'awareness', would not say that 'Primordal' man did not have consciousness. He just had a different level of consciousness.

The consciousness of 'Primordal' man rested with himself. He was aware of himself and his needs and the threats around him to his existence. I call this the bestial consciousness, and I do see that the development of language goes hand in hand with the development of consciousness, but I would not call this the defining factor.

I believe that the purpose of this consciousness development - beyond awareness simply of self and self needs and survival - is expressed by Paul in Acts 17:

24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Everything of creation was made and intended to bring humanity to the point of looking outside of himself, realizing that there is more than his little self, and actually groping for God.

And so the delineation is consciousness of beast versus Consciousness for and ultimately of God. This is what all of the teachings of scripture is about - overcoming this lesser consciousness, now in this stage of the development of humanity being able to, repenting of this self-alone focused consciousness, not that it was wrong, but that God wants more from us and has given us the ability for more, if we but repent (turn aside from our beastly consciousness, deny self, etc) and overcome the bestal consciousness with Grace.

So yes, indeed there was a preparing of the way, within the development of humanity, as there is also a preparing of the way within us, for the receiving of the Messiah.

This is salvation for unless we overcome the bestial consciousness, what we think of as 'me' will simply return to dust. For the world was not created for the bestial consciousness, but for the Godly Consciousness, the Righteous Ones, for which creation has been laboring - for the birth of the sons of God.

Shalom!

Viv

[shunyadragon]

Well I think it does, In Gen. 4:2, Agriculture began there, not before. It was taught, not inherant in them.

Peace.

This quote does not say they were taught by God, it simply says they did it. The evidence indicates it was a gradual process over a period of time. This is also the case with the domestication of animals.

[mickiel]

Hi mickiel!

As previously shared, I too see something similar, although I would use different terms. In using consciousness to mean 'awareness', would not say that 'Primordal' man did not have consciousness. He just had a different level of consciousness.

The consciousness of 'Primordal' man rested with himself. He was aware of himself and his needs and the threats around him to his existence. I call this the bestial consciousness, and I do see that the development of language goes hand in hand with the development of consciousness, but I would not call this the defining factor.

I believe that the purpose of this consciousness development - beyond awareness simply of self and self needs and survival - is expressed by Paul in Acts 17:

24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Everything of creation was made and intended to bring humanity to the point of looking outside of himself, realizing that there is more than his little self, and actually groping for God.

And so the delineation is consciousness of beast versus Consciousness for and ultimately of God. This is what all of the teachings of scripture is about - overcoming this lesser consciousness, now in this stage of the development of humanity being able to, repenting of this self-alone focused consciousness, not that it was wrong, but that God wants more from us and has given us the ability for more, if we but repent (turn aside from our beastly consciousness, deny self, etc) and overcome the bestal consciousness with Grace.

So yes, indeed there was a preparing of the way, within the development of humanity, as there is also a preparing of the way within us, for the receiving of the Messiah.

This is salvation for unless we overcome the bestial consciousness, what we think of as 'me' will simply return to dust. For the world was not created for the bestial consciousness, but for the Godly Consciousness, the Righteous Ones, for which creation has been laboring - for the birth of the sons of God.

Shalom!

Viv

Greetings Vivian,

Again I agree with you, this " Beastial Consciousness", or animal Consciousness does not promote or create religion, it does not develop civilizations, it willnot create agriculture, it does not create science or technology, and neither did primordal man.

Animal consciousness is not the image of God.

Peace.

[mickiel]

This quote does not say they were taught by God, it simply says they did it. The evidence indicates it was a gradual process over a period of time. This is also the case with the domestication of animals.

Well I disagree with you on this, in verse 1 it states " I have gotten a manchild with the Help of the Lord." God was helping them with everything they needed to learn.

Peace.

[mickiel]

Well I disagree with you on this, in verse 1 it states " I have gotten a manchild with the Help of the Lord." God was helping them with everything they needed to learn.

Peace.

Here God is helping the first woman with Consciousness to even have birth, why would he not then help her in the rasing of the child? Would he neglect the child and not teach it? Of course not, he taught his creation everything they set a course on.

Peace.

[Vivian]

Here God is helping the first woman with Consciousness to even have birth, why would he not then help her in the rasing of the child? Would he neglect the child and not teach it? Of course not, he taught his creation everything they set a course on.

Peace.

Hi mickiel!

Do you think that God was not helping humanity with their births or helping them raise their children prior to Adam?

Or -

Is it that God has always helped, taken care of humanity, but it was only with the non-bestial consciousness that we were able to see and recognize God's hand which had been there all along?

I think one reason that we do not have recorded writings from previous times, is because the consciousness in humanity was not able to see beyond daily survival, was not able to ponder the stars, and his own existence, therefore had nothing to write about until recent history.

They may have had the biological and physiological means for the intelligence necessary for language, but there was no reason, no desire, no drive to communicate beyond the necessities for daily survival.

Shalom!

Viv

[shunyadragon]

Well I disagree with you on this, in verse 1 it states " I have gotten a manchild with the Help of the Lord." God was helping them with everything they needed to learn.

Peace.

Does not relate to the previous quote. Nothing in the previous quote indicates God taught Cain and Able.


Evidence world wide is for a gradual development of agriculture.

[mickiel]

Hi mickiel!

Do you think that God was not helping humanity with their births or helping them raise their children prior to Adam?

Or -

Is it that God has always helped, taken care of humanity, but it was only with the non-bestial consciousness that we were able to see and recognize God's hand which had been there all along?

I think one reason that we do not have recorded writings from previous times, is because the consciousness in humanity was not able to see beyond daily survival, was not able to ponder the stars, and his own existence, therefore had nothing to write about until recent history.

They may have had the biological and physiological means for the intelligence necessary for language, but there was no reason, no desire, no drive to communicate beyond the necessities for daily survival.

Shalom!

Viv

Greetings Vivian,

May our Lord bless your mind.

In Eph. 1:12 we are shown to be the first to hope in Christ. Primordal man didnot have this Hope, didnot have Christ. Although I am impressed with their obvious existence, I think they are in exile with God.

Peace.

[shunyadragon]

Hi mickiel!

Do you think that God was not helping humanity with their births or helping them raise their children prior to Adam?

Or -

Is it that God has always helped, taken care of humanity, but it was only with the non-bestial consciousness that we were able to see and recognize God's hand which had been there all along?

I think one reason that we do not have recorded writings from previous times, is because the consciousness in humanity was not able to see beyond daily survival, was not able to ponder the stars, and his own existence, therefore had nothing to write about until recent history.

They may have had the biological and physiological means for the intelligence necessary for language, but there was no reason, no desire, no drive to communicate beyond the necessities for daily survival.

Shalom!

Viv

There are several very down to earth logical reasons why we lack a lot of evidence of written early language, other than evoking a pre-Adam human nature that is in some way different. First, many early forms of writing did not survive. We know that animal, such as the horse, hair knots were an early form of communication, but did not likely survive.

First though we do have evidence among primitive humans and pre-humans and Neanderthals of recording notches in bones, at least one showing phases of the moon, dating back to 100,000 years. Burial rituals with red ochre occur in the same range of time. Some notched bones have been found in these graves.

There is abundant evidence throughout this period that they did things that were beyond consideration of day to day survival, including the making of ornaments and art work.

All the evidence indicates a consciousness of the self during the and before the time when when humans were fully human including Neanderthals.

Clothing dates to 30,000 years ago at least.

[Vivian]

There are several very down to earth logical reasons why we lack a lot of evidence of written early language, other than evoking a pre-Adam human nature that is in some way different. First, many early forms of writing did not survive. We know that animal, such as the horse, hair knots were an early form of communication, but did not likely survive.

First though we do have evidence among primitive humans and pre-humans and Neanderthals of recording notches in bones, at least one showing phases of the moon, dating back to 100,000 years. Burial rituals with red ochre occur in the same range of time. Some notched bones have been found in these graves.

There is abundant evidence throughout this period that they did things that were beyond consideration of day to day survival, including the making of ornaments and art work.

All the evidence indicates a consciousness of the self during the and before the time when when humans were fully human including Neanderthals.

Clothing dates to 30,000 years ago at least.

Hi shunyadragon!

When I speak of Adam, I am not speaking of a figure that lived 6000 or 7000 years ago, but a measure of human development that might have well occurred 100,000 years ago by our earth's years. And so my discussion is more of concepts and philosophy regarding the development of human consciousness, than a historical timeline.

I do have a question to ask you, since you seem to have some knowledge in this area. Last night I was involved in an online class discussion that actually talked a little on this topic.

What was offered is that the discovery of fire was a huge catalyst in the progressive evolution of human consciousness. When fire was discovered, man could cook his food, and by cooking his food, he could get by with smaller teeth, and as the teeth evolved to smaller ones, the mouth becoming smaller as a whole, the brain of humanity became bigger.

This larger brain made it possible for a higher consciousness to be embodied in human form, and so at this point a huge leap in the collective human consciousness was made.

Does this make any sense to you, given what you know?

Shalom!

Viv

[mickiel]

Does not relate to the previous quote. Nothing in the previous quote indicates God taught Cain and Able.


Evidence world wide is for a gradual development of agriculture.

Nothing that your mind can see.

I am not limited to the confines of your thought.

Peace.