When Do Millennials Think They Become Adults?

[TheWall]

The only thing that could stop M.A D is if nukes were able to be launched not requiring humans. Otherwise known as a Metal Gear.

[lilpixieofterror]

Gosh Starlight, you've got all silent since all of your arguments against the military have sunk as fast as every argument you make has. Do you ever get tired of being wrong every single time your mouth opens and words began to spill out?

[lilpixieofterror]

The only thing that could stop M.A D is if nukes were able to be launched not requiring humans. Otherwise known as a Metal Gear.

Judging by his ignorance about the military, I wouldn't be surprised if what he learned about the military comes from a Call of Dury or some other video game.

[Sparko]

Centuries ago, an army could ride in, steal the gold, and ride away again with a profit. But today, in most Western countries, ~50% of the wealth is in the urban housing market, and ~50% of the wealth is in the share market, and everything else together is a rounding error, and the government is in debt and runs deficits and the balance of trade runs at a loss. That presents a problem to a potential invader because (a) you can't 'carry off' housing or businesses shares, (b) the housing and business markets will collapse the moment you destabilize the government and economy so by setting military foot in the countries their wealth vanishes making it even harder to steal, (c) if you take control of the country to try and rule it you'd saddled with the national debt and running at a loss so that's not economically attractive, (d) you're probably making money by trading with the country and that trading will falter due to the invasion and business disruption so you will lose money, (e) the people of the country will peskily whine for democracy and be very uncooperative with any authoritarian rule, (f) other countries will put serious sanctions on you, collapsing your own economy and making you lose heaps of money. So invading a modern Western country is just not in any way an attractive proposition economically, which explains why nobody at all has tried to do it in the last 70 years.

Invading and conquering is about power and control, not stocks and bonds.

[TheWall]

Judging by his ignorance about the military, I wouldn't be surprised if what he learned about the military comes from a Call of Dury or some other video game.

Having freinds and family in the military helps. A freind of mine was a soldier who played Cod and metal gear. He said metal gear was far better because Metal Gear is more psychological dealing with PTSD and such as a main theme.

[Leonhard]

I agree, a friend of mine is unfortunately in that pickle. But he's slated to be debt free by the age of 24.

By 2024 is what I meant to write. What a typo.

[Leonhard]

The only thing that could stop M.A D is if nukes were able to be launched not requiring humans. Otherwise known as a Metal Gear.

Metal Gear Solid fan boy spotted!

[Sparko]

You lived at a time when it was much cheaper to live, when college was free or very cheap, when you could drop out of high school and live on your own at 19 or 20 on 2 dollars an hour.

Those days are long gone thanks to the free market and conservative economic policies.

Do you know that more than 50% of Americans make less than 30k a year? 66% make less than 45k. With rent in big cities like NY, SF, LA, Chi over 1k a month, and closer to 2k a month, it is just impossible to live on your own at 20 unless you join the military, or you somehow manage to make at least 50k a year in most parts of the country, which less than 30% of Americans make!

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You realize back when seer and I were teenagers that salaries were a lot lower than now. Relatively speaking, the problems and costs were the same. I made $3.35/hour (min wage) when I left home. I had to pay for school and an apartment and utilities and food, all on about $400/month after taxes. The apartment was $200/month (I got a deal). Food was about $200/month. Gas was about $80/month. Utilities and such were about $50/month. So that is about $500-600 (with other bills) on a $400/month salary. I had to have a room mate to make it. The school was mostly covered by some grants I had except for books and things.

So today, min wage is $7.25 or about $900/month after taxes (a bit more)
Apartments around me are about $600 for the same quality I had starting out. Food runs about $350. Gas is about the same $100. Utilities run about $100. So about $1200/month on a $900/paycheck. Could make it easily with a room mate.

(About 25% short. In my example above I was about 30% short. so it is pretty much close to the same. )

Kids starting out today are no better or worse off than kids were in the 1980s.

Increase the minimum wage and you increase everything else and it all remains the same relatively speaking.

[Leonhard]

You realize back when seer and I were teenagers that salaries were a lot lower than now. Relatively speaking, the problems and costs were the same. I made $3.35/hour (min wage) when I left home. I had to pay for school and an apartment and utilities and food, all on about $400/month after taxes. The apartment was $200/month (I got a deal). Food was about $200/month. Gas was about $80/month. Utilities and such were about $50/month. So that is about $500-600 (with other bills) on a $400/month salary. I had to have a room mate to make it. The school was mostly covered by some grants I had except for books and things.

So today, min wage is $7.25 or about $900/month after taxes (a bit more)
Apartments around me are about $600 for the same quality I had starting out. Food runs about $350. Gas is about the same $100. Utilities run about $100. So about $1200/month on a $900/paycheck. Could make it easily with a room mate.

(About 25% short. In my example above I was about 30% short. so it is pretty much close to the same. )

Kids starting out today are no better or worse off than kids were in the 1980s.

Increase the minimum wage and you increase everything else and it all remains the same relatively speaking.

Do you have any sources for those numbers, or are you crafting them to fit your argument? I can also cite a bunch of numbers, and make it so the difference comes out to 600$, or more.

[The Thinker]

You realize back when seer and I were teenagers that salaries were a lot lower than now. Relatively speaking, the problems and costs were the same. I made $3.35/hour (min wage) when I left home. I had to pay for school and an apartment and utilities and food, all on about $400/month after taxes. The apartment was $200/month (I got a deal). Food was about $200/month. Gas was about $80/month. Utilities and such were about $50/month. So that is about $500-600 (with other bills) on a $400/month salary. I had to have a room mate to make it. The school was mostly covered by some grants I had except for books and things.

So today, min wage is $7.25 or about $900/month after taxes (a bit more)
Apartments around me are about $600 for the same quality I had starting out. Food runs about $350. Gas is about the same $100. Utilities run about $100. So about $1200/month on a $900/paycheck. Could make it easily with a room mate.

(About 25% short. In my example above I was about 30% short. so it is pretty much close to the same. )

Kids starting out today are no better or worse off than kids were in the 1980s.

Increase the minimum wage and you increase everything else and it all remains the same relatively speaking.

Salaries were lower but so was everything else. And things were disproportionately lower 30, 40 years ago, especially college and medical costs. College was almost free, or really cheap. Today it costs an arm and a leg. And 40 years ago a bachelor's degree pretty much guaranteed a spot in the middle class, today it does not. This is just over 20 years:



Basically it's only affordable to live on your own as a young adult if you live in the middle of nowhere, where there will be few jobs paying over 30k a year.

Where I live in NYC a 1 bedroom apt rents for $3000 per month in Manhattan, and even in the "cheap" areas it's about $1,500-$2,000. Minimum wage is just over $9 an hour in NY state, but will rise to $15 an hour by 2021. Still, $15 an hour, which is about 30k a year for full time work, can't even get you a 1 bedroom in NYC, unless you want to live in the worst and most violent neighborhoods where you have to worry about being shot everyday.

This is why so many adults still live with their parents in their 20s.

[DesertBerean]

Do you have any sources for those numbers, or are you crafting them to fit your argument? I can also cite a bunch of numbers, and make it so the difference comes out to 600$, or more.

Leonhard, it seems he is presenting figures from his experince of what's around him and his own experiences, not "crafting" them.

[Sparko]

Salaries were lower but so was everything else. And things were disproportionately lower 30, 40 years ago, especially college and medical costs. College was almost free, or really cheap. Today it costs an arm and a leg. And 40 years ago a bachelor's degree pretty much guaranteed a spot in the middle class, today it does not. This is just over 20 years:



Basically it's only affordable to live on your own as a young adult if you live in the middle of nowhere, where there will be few jobs paying over 30k a year.

Where I live in NYC a 1 bedroom apt rents for $3000 per month in Manhattan, and even in the "cheap" areas it's about $1,500-$2,000. Minimum wage is just over $9 an hour in NY state, but will rise to $15 an hour by 2021. Still, $15 an hour, which is about 30k a year for full time work, can't even get you a 1 bedroom in NYC, unless you want to live in the worst and most violent neighborhoods where you have to worry about being shot everyday.

This is why so many adults still live with their parents in their 20s.

As I said, that is not true. The salaries have gone up as the prices of goods and services have gone up. Pretty proportionately.

Maybe not where you live but $30k a year is a pretty nice income for a young adult around the midwest areas other than in certain big cities. And in those areas, jobs pay more. I was a graphic designer for a while, making about $30K. The average pay for a graphic designer in New York was about $100K at the same time. The national average was about $55K. It all depends where you live and the cost of living there. If you can't afford to live in NYC, then move. It is not a great place for minimum wage earners, agreed. But if you are looking for the highest average salaries in any other job, Manhattan is one of the top paying places in the world. But that comes at a cost. The cost of living in Manhattan is one of the highest in the world too. Like I said, the more the pay, the more the cost. It always works out that way.

And I never said "living on your own" -- it is pretty hard to live on your own on minimum wage. Even 40 years ago. I said I had to have a room mate and it was still a struggle. Ate Ramen Noodles many a night. Had hand me down furniture and clothes. Had a junker of a car. needed money from my parents every now and then. It is just as hard today as it was then. Not harder. Not easier.

[RumTumTugger]

Er, sure, but I would consider you to be a kid at that age. I don't really agree with the OP definition of 'adult'. And joining the military made having a job and moving out of your parents' home happen simultaneously for you. I don't really approve of kids that age being allowed to join the military. Taking an immoral career in the military is a serious moral decision that kids that age don't really have the capacity to fully understand, and it seems like child abuse to me that they are allowed to be recruited and trained to kill.

bold emphasis mine

Just like I thought you have no moral compass at all Starlight. You who have stated that you think it would be ok to kill an innocent 3 month old baby(the ultimate child abuse) have no right to impugn the morals of those who have sworn to protect you, at the risk of their own lives, from those who would attack you. You sir are a "jackass*".

*Not the word that best describes you but it is against campus decorum and is one of the reason I choose not to use it.

[The Thinker]

As I said, that is not true. The salaries have gone up as the prices of goods and services have gone up. Pretty proportionately.

Maybe not where you live but $30k a year is a pretty nice income for a young adult around the midwest areas other than in certain big cities. And in those areas, jobs pay more. I was a graphic designer for a while, making about $30K. The average pay for a graphic designer in New York was about $100K at the same time. The national average was about $55K. It all depends where you live and the cost of living there. If you can't afford to live in NYC, then move. It is not a great place for minimum wage earners, agreed. But if you are looking for the highest average salaries in any other job, Manhattan is one of the top paying places in the world. But that comes at a cost. The cost of living in Manhattan is one of the highest in the world too. Like I said, the more the pay, the more the cost. It always works out that way.

And I never said "living on your own" -- it is pretty hard to live on your own on minimum wage. Even 40 years ago. I said I had to have a room mate and it was still a struggle. Ate Ramen Noodles many a night. Had hand me down furniture and clothes. Had a junker of a car. needed money from my parents every now and then. It is just as hard today as it was then. Not harder. Not easier.

You seem to be pulling numbers out of your a—ssumptions. In crappy areas of the country, most people are not making 30k a year, certainly not many 21 year olds. In crappy areas of the US you might have to work 10-20 years before you make 30k.

The average graphic designer in NY is making $57,740 per year. Not 100k. Only 8% of Americans make 100k or higher.

You're forgetting a huge piece of this argument of why young adults still live with their parents: college costs have gone up much higher than inflation, and when you graduate college at 22 with 30—40—50—or more thousand dollars in debt, you will not be able to live on your own easily even if you happen to land a 40—50k job right out of school—which many college grads are not able to find.

It is harder today to live at or near minimum wage because things are much more expensive, especially housing, medical, educational, and childcare costs. The only things cheaper are electronics and appliances, which get cheaper as technology gets better.

[Sparko]

You seem to be pulling numbers out of your a—ssumptions. In crappy areas of the country, most people are not making 30k a year, certainly not many 21 year olds. In crappy areas of the US you might have to work 10-20 years before you make 30k.

No I am using actual numbers. The 30K and the minimum wage thing are two separate discussions. 30K is the figure you mentioned earlier as the average in the country. Well not too long ago I was making it. I had a pretty nice middle class lifestyle. Sorry if that barely buys you a cheeseburger in NYC. And I can't think of anywhere where you would have to work 10 years to make 30K in the USA at a full time job.

As far as apartments go, the type I lived in when I was in school (basically an older house that was divided up into several apartments and we had a two bedroom apartment) which cost about $200-$400 back in the 1980s, costs about $500-$800 here now. The cost of living has gone up since then, but so has the wages. It all averages out.

The average graphic designer in NY is making $57,740 per year. Not 100k. Only 8% of Americans make 100k or higher.

I think I was looking up what I was trying for, a senior graphic designer. It has been several years now. But looking that up on a salary site now it shows that the average is 57K and NYC is 71K with max around $97K. Also the wages vary a lot in that industry depending on what field you are working on, general advertising, web design, TV commercials, the Music Industry, etc. but hey if you don't believe me that is cool.

You're forgetting a huge piece of this argument of why young adults still live with their parents: college costs have gone up much higher than inflation, and when you graduate college at 22 with 30—40—50—or more thousand dollars in debt, you will not be able to live on your own easily even if you happen to land a 40—50k job right out of school—which many college grads are not able to find.

Like I said, I think way too many kids go to college who probably should not. I also said that I have no problem with a kid staying at home while going to college or school. Going into debt for a degree that has no earning potential is more than stupid in my opinion.

It is harder today to live at or near minimum wage because things are much more expensive, especially housing, medical, educational, and childcare costs. The only things cheaper are electronics and appliances, which get cheaper as technology gets better.

I already showed you that is not the case. The relative cost of living is about the same now as it was in the 80s and 90s compared to income. It all averages out. You can repeat yourself all you want but it just isn't true. My nephew just moved out of his parents place a few years ago. He had a couple of room mates and they did just fine on minimum wage jobs till he found a better job.

Minimum wage is not meant to support you. It is for entry level jobs for kids starting out, or folks wanting to make a little extra money. It is not meant to be your entire life career. If it is, you are doing it wrong.