What Has Become

[Thoughtful Monk]

What has become of Christians who turned the world upside down? (Acts 17:6)

I don't think the world is anymore right-side up than in Paul's day.

I see Christians who are more influenced by what the world says than what God says.

I see Christians who believe but have withdrawn from trying to proclaim the light of God to the world.

I see Christians who believe and proclaim being increasingly marginalized by the world and other Christians.

When did Christians stop realizing that the world would hate them? (John 17:14). Did we come to believe we actually lived in a "Christian" nation and were somehow exempt?

And for me the saddest part is I am no better than the ones who have withdrawn from the proclamation of God's word to the world.

Woe on us, we were given much and we gave so little.

[Zeratul]

Well, that's the problem.

The issue is the church has been influenced by the world: theological and philosophical ignorance, Christians not bothering to read the Bible, and political correctness.

[Manwë Súlimo]

We would turn the world upside down but my guild has a raid scheduled for this Sunday evening so.....

[Jin-Roh]

What has become of Christians who turned the world upside down? (Acts 17:6)

Still do in plenty of places.

I don't think the world is anymore right-side up than in Paul's day.

Well, I think that it is least a little bit better -at least in the west- Christians did manage to abolish bloodsports and slavery after all.

I see Christians who are more influenced by what the world says than what God says.

I see Christians who believe but have withdrawn from trying to proclaim the light of God to the world.

I see Christians who believe and proclaim being increasingly marginalized by the world and other Christians.

When did Christians stop realizing that the world would hate them? (John 17:14). Did we come to believe we actually lived in a "Christian" nation and were somehow exempt?

And for me the saddest part is I am no better than the ones who have withdrawn from the proclamation of God's word to the world.

Woe on us, we were given much and we gave so little.

I think one of the big problems is a huge emphasis on action and evangelicalism, with little value placed on thoughtfulness.

[Zeratul]

I wish I could edit my posts... I would probably add apathy, as well as nervousness (in reference to being worried about being flamed, looked down upon by others etc by preaching the Gospel - and I don't want to use the word "cowardice.").

[Thoughtful Monk]

Still do in plenty of places.



Well, I think that it is least a little bit better -at least in the west- Christians did manage to abolish bloodsports and slavery after all.



I think one of the big problems is a huge emphasis on action and evangelicalism, with little value placed on thoughtfulness.

I'm sure there are Christians making a difference in the world. I just wish I could see it around the area I live in.

Would you expand on your last sentence a little bit? I'm not sure what you mean by thoughtfulness.

[Thoughtful Monk]

I wish I could edit my posts... I would probably add apathy, as well as nervousness (in reference to being worried about being flamed, looked down upon by others etc by preaching the Gospel - and I don't want to use the word "cowardice.").

I agree with both of your posts Zeratul. Personally I think its more apathy than anything else these days. Somehow the wonder and joy of having a relationship (whatever that means to you) with God is gone and Christians feel they have nothing to give to the world. I guess they call that the joy of your salvation.

(Helpful hint: when viewing your posts you'll see the word options under it on the left side. Click it and you get an option to edit your posts.)

[Jedidiah]

I'm sure there are Christians making a difference in the world. I just wish I could see it around the area I live in.

I do not think that the impact Christians have is terribly visible. But, what would the world - including where you live - be like today if Christians had not been around for the last hundred years.

[Jin-Roh]

Would you expand on your last sentence a little bit? I'm not sure what you mean by thoughtfulness.

I sometimes feels that evangelicalism tends to adopt a "act first - think never." I feel like there is a lot resistance to any interpretation, concept, spiritual discipline -whatever- that is doesn't have a very easy connection to getting more people to become Christians.

Exhibit A might be a common Easter service. This is should be the highlight of Christian year, in which we celebrate the most event in our faith, and unashamedly use Christian speech, symbols, etc when we celebrate. However, I feel that a lot of times Easter is reduced to a big recruitment ceremony, in which the importance of the Resurrection is actually downplayed because we don't want to alienate any new comers who might make the church 'grow.'

It's better to alienate Christians instead. But if you're alienated, then it is because you're not evangelizing.

I can also add that evangelical churches do not usually have a problem celebrating the fourth of July or the superbowl in the manner intended.

I guess what I mean by a lack of "thoughtfulness" is willingness to recognize that not everything is reducible to evangelism and action. It means also that Christianity might spread more slowly than we like and that sometimes the best "action" is good worship.

[Zeratul]

I agree with both of your posts Zeratul. Personally I think its more apathy than anything else these days. Somehow the wonder and joy of having a relationship (whatever that means to you) with God is gone and Christians feel they have nothing to give to the world. I guess they call that the joy of your salvation.

(Helpful hint: when viewing your posts you'll see the word options under it on the left side. Click it and you get an option to edit your posts.)

I know you can edit your posts using that option, but it has a time limit which seems to be less than a day. On some other forums I've been on, the time limit is a lot larger... so I miss that feature here.

[Rushing Jaws]

I know you can edit your posts using that option, but it has a time limit which seems to be less than a day. On some other forums I've been on, the time limit is a lot larger... so I miss that feature here.

## The time limit is 45 minutes, I believe. Catholic Answers gives you only 20 minutes.

[Thoughtful Monk]

I sometimes feels that evangelicalism tends to adopt a "act first - think never." I feel like there is a lot resistance to any interpretation, concept, spiritual discipline -whatever- that is doesn't have a very easy connection to getting more people to become Christians.

Exhibit A might be a common Easter service. This is should be the highlight of Christian year, in which we celebrate the most event in our faith, and unashamedly use Christian speech, symbols, etc when we celebrate. However, I feel that a lot of times Easter is reduced to a big recruitment ceremony, in which the importance of the Resurrection is actually downplayed because we don't want to alienate any new comers who might make the church 'grow.'

It's better to alienate Christians instead. But if you're alienated, then it is because you're not evangelizing.

I can also add that evangelical churches do not usually have a problem celebrating the fourth of July or the superbowl in the manner intended.

I guess what I mean by a lack of "thoughtfulness" is willingness to recognize that not everything is reducible to evangelism and action. It means also that Christianity might spread more slowly than we like and that sometimes the best "action" is good worship.

Jin-Roh,

Thanks for the response. I have seen what you have talked about in all church services not just Easter. Despite what they may claim, too many churches judge their success by the number of attending. To get their numbers up, they do anything it takes to get people to come in and stay. Seriously working at their faith and beliefs won't bring in a large crowd. Celebrating the Superbowl does.

(Aside: is a church celebrating the Fourth of July violating the separation of church and state by bringing the state into the church? )

What you said reminded me of something I read recently. The author said he grew up knowing what he believed but not why he believed it. Too many people will simply repeat what they are taught and can't explain it at some level. Is this part of the reason Christians are accused of leaving their brains at the door because they can't carry on an intelligent conversation about their faith?

Most evangelical churches don't have any action beyond evangelism. They are so afraid of being accused of working for salvation that their response is to do nothing. Again no wonder that their people don't know because discipleship isn't emphasized or practiced. The great commission is to proclaim the gospel and make disciples. Salvation is just the start of making disciples.

From a study of church history, I realized evangelicalism (as practiced today) is a new portion of Christianity barely 100 years old. (Which sounds impressive until one realizes Christianity is 2,000 years old.) I wonder if its something that is in the process of burning out.

[Thoughtful Monk]

I know you can edit your posts using that option, but it has a time limit which seems to be less than a day. On some other forums I've been on, the time limit is a lot larger... so I miss that feature here.

Now I've learned something. Thanks.

[Jin-Roh]

Jin-Roh,

Thanks for the response. I have seen what you have talked about in all church services not just Easter. Despite what they may claim, too many churches judge their success by the number of attending. To get their numbers up, they do anything it takes to get people to come in and stay. Seriously working at their faith and beliefs won't bring in a large crowd. Celebrating the Superbowl does.

(Aside: is a church celebrating the Fourth of July violating the separation of church and state by bringing the state into the church? )

What you said reminded me of something I read recently. The author said he grew up knowing what he believed but not why he believed it. Too many people will simply repeat what they are taught and can't explain it at some level. Is this part of the reason Christians are accused of leaving their brains at the door because they can't carry on an intelligent conversation about their faith?

Most evangelical churches don't have any action beyond evangelism. They are so afraid of being accused of working for salvation that their response is to do nothing. Again no wonder that their people don't know because discipleship isn't emphasized or practiced. The great commission is to proclaim the gospel and make disciples. Salvation is just the start of making disciples.

From a study of church history, I realized evangelicalism (as practiced today) is a new portion of Christianity barely 100 years old. (Which sounds impressive until one realizes Christianity is 2,000 years old.) I wonder if its something that is in the process of burning out.

that is a very important question. I believe that conservative fundamentalism will atrophy out in thirty years. I do not know if Evangelicalism will burn out, or keep changing its clothes every generation or so.

[Trusty]

The things I've noticed in my area is that most worship services are geared towards shallow evangelism. Loud music, pep talk with about three proof-texts, and an alter call to come join the country club by going through a "repeat after me" prayer.

I think that the key problem is not too much evangelism, it is that there is not enough outside the corporate worship service, so the service has become evangelism and no one ever grows.

Also, much Christianity in a variety of circles has been reduced to "get saved then die and go to heaven but be happy until then..."

It usually goes like this around here: liturgical churches are routine and boring, Reformed churches occupy the frozen chosen, other churches are mindless entertainment, others include angry Republicans, and yet others are old burn-outs.

And out of each of those groups there are a small set of churches in every denomination or theological tradition that live out the full Christian life...but they are few and far between.

But, like I said before, this is just in my area...I don't know about the rest of the world.