The Father in the OT ?

[Kabane52]

I was under the impression that Mormonism taught that "Elohim" referred to God the Father, while the divine name referred to God the Son.

(Psalm 2:7) I will tell of the decree: [Jehovah] said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you.

In the NT this verse is applied to Jesus, Jesus being the Son. If Jehovah always means Jesus, what in the world is this passage talking about? In Trinitarian theology, the divine name can refer to any of the three divine persons individually, or them all at once. Psalm 2 refers to the Father when it uses the divine name.

[JAYMZ]

I changed the translations to the original Hebrew for clarity.

Psalm 82:1: Elohim has taken his place in the assembly of EL, in the midst of the elohim He holds judgment.

Psalm 29:1: Ascribe to Yahweh, O sons of EL, ascribe to Yahweh glory and strength.

Earthly " Rulers " or " leaders " are gods by essence or nature ?

Psalm 89:6: For who in the skies can be compared to Yahweh, who among the sons of EL is like Yahweh

Read the whole Psalm 89 in context.

I'm sure the LDS would love to claim this is talking about their " council of the gods. "

I personally don't believe angels or supernatural creatures could be considered deity my self though.

[Kabane52]

The Divine Council is not polytheistic. Elohim can mean angelic beings. Jehovah sits at the head of the Divine Council, presiding over the angels. The sons of God (angels) cannot compare to the Lord Himself. Likewise in Deuteronomy 32, the concept taught is that the Lord appoints all nations besides Israel to angelic administration, but reserves Israel for Himself.

[JAYMZ]

Will the “lot more” defend and make sense of your position as you stated “we see one God revealed in the OT, and then we see later in the NT that Jesus is that God....made flesh” considering your one God is a spirit without form or shape and was according to you Jesus…“made flesh”?

Scripture Verse:

John 1:18 (New International Version)
18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Scripture Verse:

John 1:18 (King James Version)

18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

LDSTrue, or any other LDS member, can you tell what John means by " no man has ever seen God " in this verse ?

....then can you tell me what John is trying to convey by the whole chapter ? ( In light of what John states in John 1:1-4, John 1:14 and John 1:18 )

[OneSizeFit]

Earthly " Rulers " or " leaders " are gods by essence or nature ?

Read the whole Psalm 89 in context.

I'm sure the LDS would love to claim this is talking about their " council of the gods. "

I personally don't believe angels or supernatural creatures could be considered deity my self though.

Psalm 89 can still be used to illustrate the council of gods. But, I thought Deut was somewhat of a proof text for LDS theology. Guess not since no one hopped in. I have also seen either JWs or LDS, I forget point to the earliest accounts of Genesis 14, in the Qumran copy and the LXX, where YHWH is not associated with Melchizedek's EL. The Masorites did a little cut n snip on that one.

On supernatural creatures being deity, really Catholics and the Orthodox are not so far off in praying to angels and saints for assistance in reaching God. I think we give more weight to the word God(s) (elohim) in English than the ancients did.

Personally, I believe in one God, any angel or lesser deity is just an emanation of the One, not a separate "person" - if God reaches people through angels or saints that's none of my business.

[OneSizeFit]

The Divine Council is not polytheistic. Elohim can mean angelic beings. Jehovah sits at the head of the Divine Council, presiding over the angels. The sons of God (angels) cannot compare to the Lord Himself. Likewise in Deuteronomy 32, the concept taught is that the Lord appoints all nations besides Israel to angelic administration, but reserves Israel for Himself.

It's not that it is polytheistic in the classical sense, it's simply ancient thought and incorrect. It belittles the omnipotence of the one true God. There can only be one God, and one Will. Unless we still believe each nation has an appointed angel?

I think your interpretation of Deut is a little generous, why would YHWH have to allot himself an "inheritance," it's just an artifact of an earlier tribal belief system.

Israelites are YHWH's portion of ELyon's lot. Simple.

I4QDeutj: "When Elyon gave the nations as an inheritance, when he separated the sons of man, he set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God (bny 'l[hym]). For Yahweh's portion was his people; Jacob was the lot of his inheritance".

[OneSizeFit]

Galatians 3:19

The law (Torah) was put into effect through angels (YHWH) by a mediator (Moses).

???

[Kabane52]

It's not that it is polytheistic in the classical sense, it's simply ancient thought and incorrect. It belittles the omnipotence of the one true God. There can only be one God, and one Will. Unless we still believe each nation has an appointed angel?

No, and this is an essential element of Christian theology. Throughout the ages, the angels appointed by the Lord to oversee the nations fell to sin and directed worship to themselves. Their effort was to accuse men of sin and thus have them condemned. They were crushed and defeated by Christ's work on the Cross. Now, men can avoid the accusations of the fallen ones by union with the Lord Jesus Christ. The universe is under new management.

I think your interpretation of Deut is a little generous, why would YHWH have to allot himself an "inheritance," it's just an artifact of an earlier tribal belief system.

No, Jesus is said to have an inheritance in the New Testament, which also teaches that Jesus is God incarnate.

I4QDeutj: "When Elyon gave the nations as an inheritance, when he separated the sons of man, he set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God (bny 'l[hym]). For Yahweh's portion was his people; Jacob was the lot of his inheritance".

There is no exegetical ground for supposing yours over mine. Considering the ANE norm of calling the same god by different names, we can easily suppose YHWH and Elyon to be the same God. YHWH hands the angels the nations, but personally oversees Israel, and then blesses the whole world through Israel when Messiah comes.

[OneSizeFit]

Ok.

[OtherCheek]

Jesus Christ is speaking there.

* edited by a moderator *

* moderator notice *

Rogue,

As far as I'm concerned, answering questions is what I'm interested in. Not arguing.

[JAYMZ]

Scripture Verse:

John 1:18 (New International Version)
18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Scripture Verse:

John 1:18 (King James Version)

18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

LDSTrue, or any other LDS member, can you tell what John means by " no man has ever seen God " in this verse ?

....then can you tell me what John is trying to convey by the whole chapter ? ( In light of what John states in John 1:1-4, John 1:14 and John 1:18 )

Is this a verse that confuses LDS members ?

[Kabane52]

Oh, and probably the worst passage for LDS:

(Psalm 110:1) Yahweh says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool."

The "my Lord" is identified as Jesus in the Book of Acts, so read it this way:

(Psalm 110:1) Yahweh says to Jesus: "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool."

Mormons believe that there is El (the Father), Yahweh (Jesus), and the Spirit (Holy Spirit)

If Yahweh is a unipersonal being that is Jesus, why is Jesus telling Himself to sit at His own right hand? It's clear that Yahweh here is God the Father, telling God the Son to sit at His right hand. LDS can't deal with this.

[JAYMZ]

Scripture Verse:

Isaiah 8:13 (New International Version)

13 The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy,
he is the one you are to fear,
he is the one you are to dread,

Who is Isaiah talking about here ? Jesus or the Father ?

LDS theology honestly confuses me, because if i were to follow their teachings I seriously would not know which God I was to regard as holy, " fear, " and " dread. "

I'm sure most LDS members dont really think about these things until christians scrutinize the consistency of their theology of God(s) and force them to look at it from another perspective.

[JAYMZ]

Any LDS member ?

What did John mean in John 1:18 that " no one has ever seen God ? "

[LDSTrue]

Originally posted by LDSTrue

Will the “lot more” defend and make sense of your position as you stated “we see one God revealed in the OT, and then we see later in the NT that Jesus is that God....made flesh” considering your one God is a spirit without form or shape and was according to you Jesus…“made flesh”?

Any LDS member ?

What did John mean in John 1:18 that " no one has ever seen God ? "

That when JAYMZ stated “we see one God revealed in the OT, and then we see later in the NT that Jesus is that God....made flesh” JAYMZ was wrong and his statement is misleading.

Quit acting as if John 1:18 states “No man WILL EVER see God at any time…’ ‘cause it doesn’t!

The man Adam saw both God and the one with God when “us” made man “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:” (Genesis 1:26)

According to your statement everyone who has seen Jesus has seen the one God of the OT…“we see one God revealed in the OT, and then we see later in the NT that Jesus is that God....made flesh” so your assumption is nonsensical considering Jesus’ statement in John 1:18.

I agree the Word God who was with God (John 1:1-2) was in fact Jesus who was “made flesh” however, Jesus is not His Father God Almighty, the God Jesus was making reference to in John 1:18.

Are you accusing Jesus of practicing ventriloquism when …”behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him”? (Matthew 17:5)

ventriloquism - the art of projecting your voice so that it seems to come from another source
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

I’m afraid your “lot more” is only adding further confusion to your claim… we see one God revealed in the OT, and then we see later in the NT that Jesus is that God....made flesh” when compared to NT scripture.