"the BIBLE is a stumbling block!!"

[jo7241974]

The same spirit that inspired the gnostics early in the church seems to have quite a hold on Jo. That spirit would like us to focus more on these " special " revelations of Jo, over the Word of God. I don't really think most LDS members get as extreme as this, but most still rely on some kind secret knowledge more that the scriptures.

The Holy Spirit is NOT a secret knowledge. He is a gift to the world. He cannot lead you into all truth if you don't let Him.

God bless,

jo

[Hamster]

Jesus and the Apostles made use of scriptural interpretation, creeds, doctrines, tradition, ideology etc. throughout their lives. I see an emphasis on community and authority. Far from "looking within" I think Christ and the apostles teach self-forgetfulness. The knowledge you need isn't inside you. It's outside of you in God, in scripture, and in the church. That's their message

[OneSizeFit]

An Antiochian patriarch was speaking to me about this recently (we hold email correspondence), about how evangelicals or Protestants tend to "glorify" the physical Bible and the words therein to such a degree that they fall into worshiping the letter, rather than being in the Spirit and lose focus on the goal of their faith. I like the description he gave, the Bible is the key, Christ is the door (through ritual of course, lol), and the Spirit is the gift or what lies beyond the door.

[OneSizeFit]

But yeah this is a powder keg statement to Sola Scriptura reformer/evangelicals. Good luck Jo!

[JAYMZ]

An Antiochian patriarch was speaking to me about this recently (we hold email correspondence), about how evangelicals or Protestants tend to "glorify" the physical Bible and the words therein to such a degree that they fall into worshiping the letter, rather than being in the Spirit and lose focus on the goal of their faith. I like the description he gave, the Bible is the key, Christ is the door (through ritual of course, lol), and the Spirit is the gift or what lies beyond the door.

Well, I know in my Church we have one big bible at the altar. Then we all get in a line, and take turns bowing before it. Then we all chant - " we don't need you anymore Holy Spirit, because we have this book. "

In reality, since we don't have Jesus and His Apostles teaching us, what would be the next best thing ?

Christians, now more than ever, have no excuse for not knowing the will of God for His Church. Not only do have the indwelling guidance of the Holy Spirit, but we have an instruction Book as well.

Scripture Verse:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (New International Version)

16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Boy Paul, you sure were a Spirit-filled and wise.

Unwise students of scripture do not put into practice what their taught.

[jo7241974]

Vivian;3050406]Actually what John, Paul and Peter, and Jesus all meant was to get as many people as possible into a personal knowing of God. To Know God and be Known by God, face to face, person to person, intimately, more intimately than any knowing we can have in the material plane.

Indeed, this IS what they taught; to be diligent and actively engaged in following Jesus and keeping the commandments. Instead of humbly submitting to these teachings, man would rather focus on the semantics and meanings rather than the doing. They think that if they can gain enough scholarly knowledge of the words themselves, they will get to know God better. What happens, is they lose sight of the teaching; thus, it becomes a stumbling block.

And no interpretation, no ideology, theology, no doctrines or creeds, from scripture can come close, can compare, to an actual knowing. And so actually you are right - it really does not matter what interpretation we hold to, as long as it leads us into opening our hearts and minds to the Light of Christ. In the Light of Christ any way, all our ideas and interpretations will fall away, for they are nothing compared to what God IS.

Many of us already realize that what we understood about God yesterday is different from what we understand today; and will be more different tomorrow. We see and recognize this in our study of scripture as layers of understanding are revealed to us. SO, why do we try to affix a "permanent" understanding on something infinite? I would offer that at any given moment, at least for those who follow Christ, the understanding we have of God is accurate. Yet tomorrow's moment which is expanded upon is also accurate! Now, God is NOT the one who has changed. It is our understanding that has changed! Since we already realize this about our own personal understanding, we MUST allow each individual their own changes in understanding God.

Whatever our understanding is of God at each moment, CANNOT change who, what, when, or where God IS. Just think of a personal relationship you have with another who is still in their physical body. You can live with them as father, mother, brother, sister, husband, or wife, etc. But you cannot be "in" them, no matter how well you think you know them. They are still separate from you. We have limits inside of our physical and finite bodies and minds. Nothing you do can change that. NOW, compare your relationship with God who is INFINITE. Even as my spirit is touched by the Holy Spirit, I don't know that within the limitations of my physical world, that it is possible to entirely KNOW who God IS. However, I have faith in Jesus' promise that the Holy Spirit WILL lead me to all truth. I just am not yet able to comprehend this.

With all of this in mind, it IS possible to view the Standard Works of the LDS Church next to the Trinity. Don't forget that the Bible is part of the Standard Works. As such, it is STILL within man's interpretation what we will choose to believe. Geoffrey's attempt to get us beyond our "interpretations" and see the words that are written is legitimate.

God bless,

jo

[jo7241974]

But yeah this is a powder keg statement to Sola Scriptura reformer/evangelicals. Good luck Jo!

Thank you Bro!!!

God bless,

Sis

[jo7241974]

An Antiochian patriarch was speaking to me about this recently (we hold email correspondence), about how evangelicals or Protestants tend to "glorify" the physical Bible and the words therein to such a degree that they fall into worshiping the letter, rather than being in the Spirit and lose focus on the goal of their faith. I like the description he gave, the Bible is the key, Christ is the door (through ritual of course, lol), and the Spirit is the gift or what lies beyond the door.

He sounds wise in the Spirit! Thank you for sharing!

God bless,

Sis

[RumTumTugger]

except the patriarch is wrong orthodox evangelicals and protestants do not worship the bible we prayerfully read the bible to try and gain an understanding based on the full context

[jo7241974]

Jesus and the Apostles made use of scriptural interpretation, creeds, doctrines, tradition, ideology etc. throughout their lives. I see an emphasis on community and authority. Far from "looking within" I think Christ and the apostles teach self-forgetfulness. The knowledge you need isn't inside you. It's outside of you in God, in scripture, and in the church. That's their message

I do understand what you have said. I would offer there is evidence in the Bible which points to the change that is made within. Keeping the commandments is a personal and active state of being. The Beatitudes, for instance, are reflective of a difference that comes from within us. "Love" is found inside of us and outside of us. Loving is proactive. Also, consider that we are individually saved, and ultimately judged.

I believe that the self-forgetfulness you speak of is achieved first from the inside, but is reflected outwardly toward others. In order to love God with all of our hearts and bodies and minds, we use two of those aspects which are internal and only one is external. The single external aspect is motivated from the two internal aspects. The external aspect of our being is what makes up the body of Christ.

God bless,

jo

[OneSizeFit]

except the patriarch is wrong orthodox evangelicals and protestants do not worship the bible we prayerfully read the bible to try and gain an understanding based on the full context

His ultimate point is Christians need the guidance of tradition in addition to the Bible. Because without that guidance Scripture can ultimately be used to suit any belief, for instance Torah Keepers live by the "not an iota" verse to justify keeping the mitzvot, the pentacostals live by "the letter killeth" verse to justify their "slated by the spirit" services, the prosperity preachers use obscure verses to justify their doctrine, the story of Ham was used to justify slavery etc, etc.

[One Bad Pig]

An Antiochian patriarch was speaking to me about this recently (we hold email correspondence), about how evangelicals or Protestants tend to "glorify" the physical Bible and the words therein to such a degree that they fall into worshiping the letter, rather than being in the Spirit and lose focus on the goal of their faith. I like the description he gave, the Bible is the key, Christ is the door (through ritual of course, lol), and the Spirit is the gift or what lies beyond the door.

Um, there is only one Antiochian patriarch. Who is corresponding with you?

[One Bad Pig]

except the patriarch is wrong orthodox evangelicals and protestants do not worship the bible we prayerfully read the bible to try and gain an understanding based on the full context

OneSizeFit's correspondence partner is not accusing evangelicals of overtly worshiping the Bible, but of an over-emphasis on sola scriptura. He is not alone in this.

[OneSizeFit]

I thought patriarch just meant father. Sorry, in english his title is reverend father.

[One Bad Pig]

I thought patriarch just meant father.

In Orthodoxy, the term "patriarch" is reserved for the highest figure in an autocephalous church. Please do not distress the priest you're corresponding with by calling him a patriarch.