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The US & Britain in Prophesy:

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  • #91
    I don't see how the USA and UK are any worse than any other country on the planet. North Korea deserves to be nuked out of its misery way more than a couple of developed countries that aren't starving and torturing their citizens for the sake of a dictator. Not to mention that individualistic countries don't do the corporate responsibility thing. Ancient Egypt did have corporate responsibility in their mores. If God treats you like you treat others, then it is great to be able to distancce oneself from jerks and not get the same punishment.
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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    • #92
      Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
      No - the entire Country and every citizen does share the guilt, and that is a point about democracy too that all the people are represented in the Government.

      The fact that God might save a few remnant in the final battle is fine, but the guilt of the USA and of Britain is still shared by all their citizens.

      I myself do not support the evils of the USA government nor of our evil society, but I accept that I do share the guilt of the guilty.
      So you're supportive that if the country is bad then the people are to be blamed, as well, 1 Samuel 14-15, "But if you will not obey the voice of the LORD, but rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then the hand of the LORD will be against you and your king."

      Remember the prior verses on this subject.

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      • #93
        1 Samuel 16:7 (with this thought), "…6 When they entered, he looked at Eliab and thought, "Surely the LORD'S anointed is before Him." 7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." 8 Then Jesse called Abinadab and made him pass before Samuel. And he said, "The LORD has not chosen this one either."…

        Choosing leadership, and with the idea of the Exodus in mind, Jethro, the priest of Midian, Moses’ father-in-law, originally told Moses to pick out leaders (able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them to be rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.) But the "idea" was to teach people "the statutes and the laws, and show them the way in which they must walk and the work they must do."{v 19} Later, as Christianity was growing, the Apostle Paul - recaptured that same thought.

        See article:

        The members of the legislative department of our Government are directly responsible to the people and to the States which responsiblility is carefully preserved upon the proinciple that the trustee may possibly abuse his trust; and, to remedy the evil, the people have wisely reserved the power in their own hands. When the sedition law was enacted, this law was applied. The President of the United States, the Governors of States, and the members of their Legislatures, all hold their offices for limited terms, that they may feel their responsiblility to the people, from who their power is derived, and for whose benefit it is exercised. Why are they not all elected for life, or during good behavior! The reason is obvioius. Because they exercise political power, which may be abused. By corruption of motive, or by the indulgence of sentiments unfriendly to liberty, they may betray the trust reposed in them; and their amenability to their sovereigns, the people, is the only sure safeguard of the rights of man. It then follows, inevitably, that the judiciary should be confined to the decision upon the laws, or that the judges should feel the same responsibility; and, if this is not done, some tribunal should be established, responsible to the people, to correct their aberrations.

        Written: Abridgment of the Debates of Congress, from 1789 to 1856: Dec. 4, 1843-June ...
        By United States. Congress, Thomas Hart Benton

        See Apostle Paul reference to leadership qualifications: Four Qualifications

        The chief biblical texts that develop the requirements of leaders are: 1 Timothy 3:1-13, 2 Timothy 2:1-13, Titus 1:5-9, Acts 6:1-6, and Exodus 18:21-22. The qualifications spelled out in these passages can be summarized in four words: commitment, conviction, competency, and character.

        Are we not discussing "biblical - Church leadership"? and coming into thought - of a religious government based upon laws given on Mount Horeb? and looking at Exodus 18, trying to compare Moses and Israelites with the U.K and U.S - isn't the same thing. Look around you! We are responsible (in a way) because we choose the leadership. However, we have the ability to let them go - as well. Jethro is telling Moses to chose leaders among the tribes - who can stand in for Moses on the smaller issues but when it comes to the larger issues - then Moses will interpret the law for the people. As the verse states, “What is this thing that you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit, and all the people stand before you from morning until evening?” 15 And Moses said to his father-in-law, “Because the people come to me to inquire of God. 16 When they have a difficulty, they come to me, and I judge between one and another; and I make known the statutes of God and His laws.”
        Last edited by Marta; 04-17-2017, 02:07 AM.

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        • #94
          Reply:

          Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
          I don't see how the USA and UK are any worse than any other country on the planet.
          I do not see where I ever said the USA or the UK are worse then others - the point is that they are more blessed than others.

          See Luke 12:48b For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

          And this = Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

          Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
          North Korea deserves to be nuked out of its misery way more than a couple of developed countries that aren't starving and torturing their citizens for the sake of a dictator.
          I say North Korea gets an unjust negative rap pushed by the USA.

          As like you and other Americans want to "nuke out NK" and is that your Christian idea? or is it the American propaganda speaking? = I see and hear the latter.

          North Korea had a peace treaty (an armistice) with the USA in 1953, and it was the USA who broke that treaty in 1957, and as such it remains broken to this day.

          Clearly the Americans disregard our own Country violating the treaty, but surely we can determine that God does not ignore that truth.

          And NK is criticized as starving its citizens - but again it is the USA who has had a food embargo (near full economic embargo) against North Korea for over a half century, and as such we the USA are starving those people and demanding other nations of the world to do the same.

          Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
          Not to mention that individualistic countries don't do the corporate responsibility thing. Ancient Egypt did have corporate responsibility in their mores.
          I say that God holds us as corporately responsible whether we like it or not.

          And both the USA and the UK claim to be democracies which is by definition makes us as corporately responsible for whatever our governments do.

          Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
          If God treats you like you treat others, then it is great to be able to distance oneself from jerks and not get the same punishment.
          If other Countries and peoples do unto us the USA as we the USA have done unto them = then we are in for some really big trouble indeed.

          Galatians 6:
          7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
          8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
          KJV

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          • #95
            The USA and UK are not the only developed countries. What about Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Japan, and South Korea?
            If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

            Comment


            • #96
              Reply:

              Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
              The USA and UK are not the only developed countries. What about Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Japan, and South Korea?
              One thing is that when the message talks about "Britain" and the British people then it is (and I am) talking about more than just the UK.

              Australia, New Zealand, Canada, are all British people, and I believe they each recognize the UK Monarchy as their own.

              Plus places like Japan, Germany, Italy, France, the Philippines, and South Korea, = all those owe their "liberation" and their prosperity to the USA.

              Even Russia was saved from the Nazis by massive American military aid during WW2.

              There is also the huge influence of the British in China and India and in the Middle East and in South America too.

              There really is no place on the planet earth which has not been significantly influenced by either the USA or the British in the past 100 - 400 years.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
                One thing is that when the message talks about "Britain" and the British people then it is (and I am) talking about more than just the UK.

                Australia, New Zealand, Canada, are all British people, and I believe they each recognize the UK Monarchy as their own.

                Plus places like Japan, Germany, Italy, France, the Philippines, and South Korea, = all those owe their "liberation" and their prosperity to the USA.

                Even Russia was saved from the Nazis by massive American military aid during WW2.

                There is also the huge influence of the British in China and India and in the Middle East and in South America too.

                There really is no place on the planet earth which has not been significantly influenced by either the USA or the British in the past 100 - 400 years.
                Again, having to point toward the last post - divine law verses human laws. Also, what the qualifications "are" for good leadership. You can have divine laws given but yet, not have a person who gives charge to them, a good example: Saul. When Samuel had to change leadership roles and chose David, the process of choosing new leadership, as scripture noted, was overseen by God and directed by a prophet - and the new King was anointed. (These are divine laws based on the law of the kings, Laws Concerning Kings and the Messiah - Mashiach in Jewish Law).

                Under the US, but not so much as the U.K, we chose our leadership based under other qualifications, for starters. We are, when voting, not looking into other areas for what we want as qualifications - look at this last election, what a land slide. Another issues, under what circumstances could a government be judged by divine laws when this institution 'leans' toward civil: "Divine law is any law that comes directly from the "will of God", in contrast to man-made law. Unlike natural law, which is independent of human beings, divine laws are totally dependent on human narrators and closely related to different cultures; they may change in human perception in time through new revelation, however, divine laws are eternal and constant, not subject to change." Giving a rise to the quote that Jesus said, and toward those under divine laws, "22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin." Meaning that those who were under divine laws, were "now" taught/corrected according to the law - they were given a full explanation. Call it a pre-warning.

                The last statement says it all, "divine laws are eternal and constant, not subject to change." When Jesus came to the people, He stated, "Matthew 15:24New International Version (NIV) 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

                Comment


                • #98
                  Last reply, King David - (and consider this thought) wrote this Psalms, "Do not cast me away from Thy presence, And do not take Thy Holy Spirit from me." When (as with the angel) we lose our luster (our sense of wisdom) it is the spirit from within. A country, like a King, can be guilty (as you say) of great sins. When the spirit within the people (as a group - country) leaves so does the wisdom and knowledge of God - we then lose our way. Correct?

                  In this thought, when we lose that sense of God - we find ourselves spiraling out of control and often blind to the needs of others - curse of the 9th plague, "No man could see his brother, nor could anyone rise from his place". This is internal blindness, we were created 'first' in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1), spiritual but then we were given flesh (Genesis 2). So the Psalms that David recites is explain in this way - see the verses as a people within those countries. The soul in man needs to return back to God and there must be away back.

                  "David now saw, more than ever, what an unclean heart he had, and sadly laments it; but he sees it is not in his own power to amend it, and therefore begs God would create in him a clean heart. When the sinner feels this change is necessary, and reads the promise of God to that purpose, he begins to ask it. He knew he had by his sin grieved the Holy Spirit, and provoked him to withdraw. This he dreads more than anything. He prays that Divine comforts may be restored to him. When we give ourselves cause to doubt our interest in salvation, how can we expect the joy of it? This had made him weak; he prays, I am ready to fall, either into sin or into despair, therefore uphold me with thy Spirit."

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Reply:

                    Originally posted by Marta View Post
                    The last statement says it all, "divine laws are eternal and constant, not subject to change." When Jesus came to the people, He stated, "Matthew 15:24New International Version (NIV) 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
                    The point and purpose of having a chosen people and chosen nations were to save the rest of humanity through them.

                    That is the task of the USA and Britain which intensifies in the last (latter) days.

                    As such the people of Israel (called by the name of Isaac / Saxon) are to save the lost sheep of humanity.

                    The people of Israel were never the lost sheep - it was the rest of humanity who were lost to God.

                    Israel was to act as a shepherd and were to save the lost sheep.

                    The Bible is about God saving all of humanity and not some small group of people - it is the Father getting reconciliation for all His lost children.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
                      The point and purpose of having a chosen people and chosen nations were to save the rest of humanity through them.

                      That is the task of the USA and Britain which intensifies in the last (latter) days.

                      As such the people of Israel (called by the name of Isaac / Saxon) are to save the lost sheep of humanity.

                      The people of Israel were never the lost sheep - it was the rest of humanity who were lost to God.

                      Israel was to act as a shepherd and were to save the lost sheep.

                      The Bible is about God saving all of humanity and not some small group of people - it is the Father getting reconciliation for all His lost children.
                      Sorry James it is Through Jesus we are saved not anyone else or a country no chosen or otherwise. To say otherwise is heretical.

                      Comment


                      • Reply:

                        Originally posted by RumTumTugger View Post
                        Sorry James it is Through Jesus we are saved not anyone else or a country no chosen or otherwise. To say otherwise is heretical.
                        There are two (2) kinds of salvation.

                        There is the physical salvation in this life time, and a second salvation in the after death life time.

                        Much like the "second death" in that there is a physical death in this life time, and a spiritual death in the next life time, and both lead humanity into salvation.

                        Jesus paid the penalty for everyone to be saved after death, but here and now in this world the physical salvation is far more complicated.

                        Of course I do accept the name of heretic for myself, and I am thankful that orthodox Christians can no longer burn me alive as was done to my predecessors.

                        And it is not a big stretch to declare that the USA and the UK saved (they saved) the world from Nazism and its allies.

                        Comment


                        • Did jesus come to be a king? In one sense yes. However that sense is the only sense. He came to be king over the new heaven and earth and his death is our ransom price. It is up to the individual to accept the free gift of grace. If salvation was communal then we no longer have christianity but a christendom. A socially accepted politically ethic, but that does not save anyone. Christendom did not save in Coppenhagen when Kierkegaard spoke against it neither did the cult of the ss when Dietrich Bonehoeffer preached against it. Now we call ourselves a Christian nation. Not to say that we are all christians but because christian values helped to build this nation.
                          sigpic

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                          • Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
                            There are two (2) kinds of salvation.

                            Of course I do accept the name of heretic for myself, and I am thankful that orthodox Christians can no longer burn me alive as was done to my predecessors.

                            And it is not a big stretch to declare that the USA and the UK saved (they saved) the world from Nazism and its allies.
                            Many different types of heresy and according to what faith (religion) deems it toward an individual or group. Some religious groups consider us to be heretics because we believe that Jesus took the form (physical) of God. Both Christian and Jewish groups suffered in a land that was "not" of their own or with their own people but nothing like what you described. In some cultures, in the middle east, and some in Europe regard certain "faiths" outside of Christianity as some form of heresy - Baha'i Faith, for instance, was considered an Islamic heresy. So, I don't know what predecessors burned people alive for their faiths/believes but people are free to believe whatever they want. Whether it is wrong or whether it is a different direction from the rest of society - it is their faith.

                            Some say, "You can not consume all of religion" without making an error or having an opinion that might be different from the rest. You can't be over in raged at people to do them harm - if you carry the basics that's all that required. Luke 10:30 "33But when a Samaritan on a journey came upon him, he looked at him and had compassion.…"the end of that passage is the wisdom of Jesus, "37“The one who showed him mercy,” replied the expert in the law. Then Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”…


                            We think that if someone doesn't follow the norms of our religion (each according to one's own faith) then they are like lepers of the group. We take no pity on them and even seclude them from the rest of society - which, I think, makes the matters worse for both sides - it is a given opportunity. King David - in the same respect, was punished for the 'sin' he had on his soul but was given choices to reprieve. We say that Jesus came to the lost tribe of Israel - even so, many of the one's he healed (outside) of the faith - found their reprievement. See Luke 13:15“You hypocrites!” the Lord replied, “Does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or donkey from the stall and lead it to water? 16Then should not this daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound for eighteen long years, be released from her bondage on the Sabbath” day? 17When Jesus said this, all His adversaries were humiliated. And the whole crowd rejoiced at all the glorious things He was doing.…
                            Last edited by Marta; 04-19-2017, 01:51 AM.

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                            • Originally posted by TheWall View Post
                              Did jesus come to be a king? In one sense yes. However that sense is the only sense. He came to be king over the new heaven and earth and his death is our ransom price. It is up to the individual to accept the free gift of grace. If salvation was communal then we no longer have christianity but a christendom. A socially accepted politically ethic, but that does not save anyone. Christendom did not save in Coppenhagen when Kierkegaard spoke against it neither did the cult of the ss when Dietrich Bonehoeffer preached against it. Now we call ourselves a Christian nation. Not to say that we are all christians but because christian values helped to build this nation.
                              John 6:37, "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." Grace is a gift.

                              John 6: 37 is in line with, "You shall "love" the Lord "Your" God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. What is loving God "with all your heart?" When your deepest desire is to fulfill His will.

                              For example, consider someone who has a meaningful career that requires him to work on Shabbat. Love of God means that if your career does not align with what God wants, then you're resigned to give it up. Not because you agree to suffer, but because it's no longer your desire. You've reached the level where your will, and the will of God, become one.

                              What is loving God "with all your soul?" That's using all your energy and talents to serve God. Even if it involves pain or humiliation. And even if it means going so far as to give up your life. LINK

                              Read: Edna St. Vincent Millay (1892–1950). Renascence

                              "The Father's will is, that not one of those who were given to the Son, should be rejected or lost by him. No one will come, till Divine grace has subdued, and in part changed his heart; therefore no one who comes will ever be cast out." Matthew Henry Commentary
                              Last edited by Marta; 04-19-2017, 03:27 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
                                The point and purpose of having a chosen people and chosen nations were to save the rest of humanity through them.

                                That is the task of the USA and Britain which intensifies in the last (latter) days.

                                As such the people of Israel (called by the name of Isaac / Saxon) are to save the lost sheep of humanity.

                                The people of Israel were never the lost sheep - it was the rest of humanity who were lost to God.

                                Israel was to act as a shepherd and were to save the lost sheep.

                                The Bible is about God saving all of humanity and not some small group of people - it is the Father getting reconciliation for all His lost children.
                                Fullness: LINK

                                "In Romans 11, Paul discusses the fate of the nation of Israel, which has rejected its Messiah. Beginning in verse 11, Paul explains God's purpose in Israel's unbelief. He says that God's plan is to use Israel's unbelief to bring about the salvation of the Gentiles, which in turn will provoke Israel to faith in their own Messiah. Then in verse 12, he contrasts the results of Israel's transgression/defeat for the world with the results of their "fullness" for the world. Paul does not spell out the results here, but verse 15 speaks of "life from the dead." This phrase has been interpreted to mean either an extensive turning to faith in Christ by the Gentiles or the actual resurrection in conjunction with the return of Christ. But it seems clear that in this context, "fullness" refers to an extensive acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah by the nation of Israel. The illustration of the olive tree in verses 17-24 makes the point that God is able to regraft the natural branches (unbelieving Israelites) back into their own olive tree (salvation brought about through Israel's Messiah).

                                The conclusion of Paul's treatment of Israel's unbelief is presented in 11:25-32. In verse 26 he clearly states that through God's plan the nation of Israel will be saved, brought to faith in Jesus. Israel's temporary unbelief will last only until the "fullness" of the Gentiles comes about (v. 25). Although the meaning of this entire passage is intensely debated, this verse seems to refer to the complete number of the elect among the Gentiles who must be saved before the conversion of Israel and the coming of Christ.

                                In Romans 13:10, Paul asserts that the "fullness" or complete purpose of the law is love. He speaks of himself in 15:29 as coming to the church at Rome in the "fullness of the blessing of Christ." Both are straightforward statements about the completeness of abundance that the word "fullness" implies."


                                *********

                                Question: "What are the times of the Gentiles?"

                                Answer: "In Luke 21:24, Jesus speaks of future events, including the destruction of Jerusalem and His return. He says that “Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled” (ESV). A similar phrase is found in Romans 11:25, which says, “A partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in” (ESV). Does the Bible tell us what the phrase “times of the Gentiles” means?

                                The Old Testament does not contain this exact phrase, but there are references that seem to match up. Ezekiel 30:3 points to “a time of doom for the nations” in connection with the Day of the Lord. Daniel’s series of visions deals with Gentile world powers and their role in God’s plan for the earth. Nebuchadnezzar’s image of gold, silver, bronze, iron, and clay (Daniel 2:31–45) represents successive Gentile kingdoms that will dominate until Christ returns and establishes His reign. Daniel’s vision of the four beasts (Daniel 7:1–27) likewise speaks of four kings, or nations, which will dominate for a time until Christ comes to rule forever. The vision of the ram and the goat (Daniel 8:1–26) gives more detail about these Gentile rulers and the time involved in their dominion. In each of these passages, the Gentiles have dominion over the world, including the Jewish people, for a time, but God will ultimately subdue them all and establish His own kingdom once and for all. Each prophecy culminates with a reference to Christ's kingdom, so the “times” of these Gentile rulers would be all the years between the Babylonian Empire of Nebuchadnezzar and the glorious return of Christ to establish His kingdom. We are now living in “the times of the Gentiles,” that is, in the era of Gentile domination."

                                *******

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