Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Guacamole and Dawkins: Chapter 4 -- Why there is almost certainly no God.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Guacamole and Dawkins: Chapter 4 -- Why there is almost certainly no God.

    I'm returning to my earlier project about my off the cuff reactions to The God Delusion, which I have found entertaining (in some good and some bad ways) and thought provoking. Chapter 4 is Dawkins's further attempts to dispense with arguments in favor of God.

    I.

    The first is the argument from probability--that is that the likelihood of life arising from purely naturalistic explanations is so improbable as to be nearly impossible--as improbable as a hurricane sweeping through a junk yard and assembling a 747. As this is an argument that is used most frequently by seven-day creationists, I'm not that interested in defending it. I agree that astoundingly improbably events happen daily--it is often cited that if you shuffle a deck of cards that it is probable that the combination you obtain is not likely to have been created before.

    Where Dawkins and I diverge is that I do not see improbability as a reasonable argument against the existence of God. In fact, I think that to argue such is a non sequitur. I see this as similar to the premature atheist triumphalism over the closing 'God of the Gaps' theory--the idea that natural processes can explain the natural universe and therefore there is no need for God in the explanation so, somehow a miracle happens, and *poof* there is therefore no God.

    My only serious objection in this section has to do with his argument that, "After Darwin, we all should feel, deep in our bones, suspicious of the very idea of design. The illusion of design is a trap that has caught us before, and Darwin should have immunized us by raising our consciousness. Would that he had succeeded with all of us." The idea of the "illusion of design" is another one of his unfalsifiable proclamations on which he is so reliant--the sort that will only appeal to his choir. In reality, it is difficult to determine if the apparent quality of "design" is a real hallmark of design or an illusion.

    II.

    The second section, "Natural Selection as a Consciousness-Raiser," doesn't seem to deal with an argument per se, but rather with his sermonette on understanding man's place in the universe. There is some attempt at wit here, and the awkward spectacle of Dawkins quoting Douglas Adams quoting Dawkins, but little, in my opinion of substance. For example, there is Dawkins disbelief at the reactions of theistic evolutionists--as if everyone who is presented with the same information must act the same way:

    I am continually astonished by those theists who, far from having their consciousness raised in the way that I propose, seem to rejoice in natural selection as ‘God’s way of achieving his creation’. They note that evolution by natural selection would be a very easy and neat way to achieve a world full of life. God wouldn’t need to do anything at all! Peter Atkins, in the book just mentioned, takes this line of thought to a sensibly godless conclusion when he postulates a hypothetically lazy God who tries to get away with as little as possible in order to make a universe containing life. Atkins’s lazy God is even lazier than the deist God of the eighteenth-century Enlightenment: deus otiosus—literally God at leisure, unoccupied, unemployed, superfluous, useless. Step by step, Atkins succeeds in reducing the amount of work the lazy God has to do until he finally ends up doing nothing at all: he might as well not bother to exist.
    Of course, I'm not sure what sort of actual Christian would believe in such a hands-off type of deity. I believe, as presumably do many theistic evolutionists, that God using evolution or other natural processes in creation is simply an extension of his divine will--there's nothing lazy about it (as "lazy," a word relevant to human nature could be relevant to an entity so completely other that most of our language about "Him" is metaphor). We believe that the universe indicates the continuing creative will of God. Evolution, the birth of stars in stellar nurseries, or plate tectonics, are not hands off processes then, but the continuing, moment by moment expression and continuance of creation.

    Again, this, like the previous section, deals with a theology that reached its peak in the nineteenth century. One gets the sense that Dawkins wishes his opponent were the typical Victorian parson with a completely anthropomorphic deity--the all or nothing sorts of God who must either create in seven days or not exist at all, as if there were no logical in between.

    -----

    At any rate, if you've read this far, I thank you for the indulgence. I will stop here to let people digest or comment on these parts, and I will post more in a couple of days, or tomorrow, if time and conversation permits.

    Thanks,
    Guacamole
    "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
    Hear my cry, hear my shout,
    Save me, save me"

  • #2
    Chapter 4 is Dawkins's further attempts to dispense with arguments in favor of God.
    ...
    Where Dawkins and I diverge is that I do not see improbability as a reasonable argument against the existence of God.
    Which is Dawkins claiming? To refute an argument for God or to have a argument against God?
    My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
      Which is Dawkins claiming? To refute an argument for God or to have a argument against God?
      Ha! I see what you mean there, and that is certainly sloppy on my part!

      In actuality, I think this chapter is primarily meant as refutation, though he moves, with some fluidity, between the two modes. In section 1, for example, he tries to refute the use of the argument from probability, and then turn it around into an argument against God. Part of the reason he is doing that, I think, is what allows the book to be engaging in the first place. If he were more careful with his presentation, his arguments might be stronger, but the presentation would be less interesting. He isn't really trying to do a more technical piece, but rather to write a lay text.

      fwiw,
      guacamole

      ps. I enjoyed that your post count was 666 as I was reading your reply.
      "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
      Hear my cry, hear my shout,
      Save me, save me"

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by guacamole View Post

        ps. I enjoyed that your post count was 666 as I was reading your reply.

        prophecy that this day is the first day of the eventual catastrophic end of our existence. Lay your hands on the TV, feel the vibes, and please stand by for the prophetic actual timing of of this catastrophic end to be determined and prophecied in a future vision.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          prophecy that this day is the first day of the eventual catastrophic end of our existence. Lay your hands on the TV, feel the vibes, and please stand by for the prophetic actual timing of of this catastrophic end to be determined and prophecied in a future vision.
          from Howl, by Ginsberg

          What sphinx of cement and aluminum bashed open their skulls and ate up their brains and imagination?
          Moloch! Solitude! Filth! Ugliness! Ashcans and unobtainable dollars! Children screaming under the stairways! Boys sobbing in armies! Old men weeping in the parks!
          Moloch! Moloch! Nightmare of Moloch! Moloch the loveless! Mental Moloch! Moloch the heavy judger of men!
          Moloch the incomprehensible prison! Moloch the crossbone soulless jailhouse and Congress of sorrows! Moloch whose buildings are judgment! Moloch the vast stone of war! Moloch the stunned governments!
          Moloch whose mind is pure machinery! Moloch whose blood is running money! Moloch whose fingers are ten armies! Moloch whose breast is a cannibal dynamo! Moloch whose ear is a smoking tomb!
          Moloch whose eyes are a thousand blind windows! Moloch whose skyscrapers stand in the long streets like endless Jehovahs! Moloch whose factories dream and croak in the fog! Moloch whose smoke-stacks and antennae crown the cities!
          Moloch whose love is endless oil and stone! Moloch whose soul is electricity and banks! Moloch whose poverty is the specter of genius! Moloch whose fate is a cloud of sexless hydrogen! Moloch whose name is the Mind!
          Moloch in whom I sit lonely! Moloch in whom I dream Angels! Crazy in Moloch! Cocksucker in Moloch! Lacklove and manless in Moloch!
          Moloch who entered my soul early! Moloch in whom I am a consciousness without a body! Moloch who frightened me out of my natural ecstasy! Moloch whom I abandon! Wake up in Moloch! Light streaming out of the sky!
          Moloch! Moloch! Robot apartments! invisible suburbs! skeleton treasuries! blind capitals! demonic industries! spectral nations! invincible madhouses! granite "wieners"! monstrous bombs!
          They broke their backs lifting Moloch to Heaven! Pavements, trees, radios, tons! lifting the city to Heaven which exists and is everywhere about us!
          Visions! omens! hallucinations! miracles! ecstasies! gone down the American river!
          Dreams! adorations! illuminations! religions! the whole boatload of sensitive "baloney"!
          Breakthroughs! over the river! flips and crucifixions! gone down the flood! Highs! Epiphanies! Despairs! Ten years’ animal screams and suicides! Minds! New loves! Mad generation! down on the rocks of Time!
          Real holy laughter in the river! They saw it all! the wild eyes! the holy yells! They bade farewell! They jumped off the roof! to solitude! waving! carrying flowers! Down to the river! into the street!
          "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
          Hear my cry, hear my shout,
          Save me, save me"

          Comment

          Related Threads

          Collapse

          Topics Statistics Last Post
          Started by Neptune7, Yesterday, 06:54 AM
          12 responses
          55 views
          0 likes
          Last Post alaskazimm  
          Started by whag, 04-09-2024, 01:04 PM
          94 responses
          469 views
          0 likes
          Last Post whag
          by whag
           
          Started by whag, 04-07-2024, 10:17 AM
          39 responses
          250 views
          0 likes
          Last Post tabibito  
          Started by whag, 03-27-2024, 03:01 PM
          154 responses
          1,016 views
          0 likes
          Last Post whag
          by whag
           
          Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
          51 responses
          351 views
          0 likes
          Last Post whag
          by whag
           
          Working...
          X