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Thread: Everyone gets Saved, and there is no Hell:

  1. #141
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Cusick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Why does it say "with unquenchable fire?" What is the point of being "unquenchable?"
    The scriptures declares that God is on fire = Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
    And the scriptures declare that God appeared in a burning bush and yet the bush was not consumed = Exodus 3:2-3
    The fire of God consumes sin but the person gets saved.
    Ok, understood that is your interpetation. But nowhere does the holy scripture expressly teach that.


    As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
    See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

    The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.
    You have conflated the "second death" with testing of the believer's works built upon the foundation of trusting Christ.
    It is the testing of a believer's works for reward not in order to be saved. Bad works burned up. The person is not in the fire.

    1 Corinthians 3:11-15,
    For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


    Revelation 21:7-8,
    He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


    So yes the fire is unquenchable, but the sins are quenched.
    No. Again, nowhere does the holy scripture expressly teach any such thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by James Cusick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Not eternal life, but the second death (Revelation 20:14), and if no torment' why does it say "the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest " (Revelation 14:11)?
    That does not mean anyone is burning in any Hell.
    It says they have "torment."
    Having no rest simply means having no Sabbath, and it is referring to this lifetime and not after death.
    No. It refers to their eternal suffering in eternal death of their bodies and souls.

    And the Revelation(s) are given in metaphor, so the Bible tells us this about the smoke:

    Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

    None of it means any torture or torment in some kind of a Hell.
    It says in Revelation, "the smoke of their torment." And your reference as you cite it says, "consume away."
    Revelation "torment" is not in metaphor that Psalm 37:20 is indeed in metaphor.



    Quote Originally Posted by James Cusick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    That is NOT the Biblical definition. The soul will die conscious (Mark 9:48) just as Jesus' soul (Isiah 53:10) died (Psalm 22:1, 6) conscious on the cross. Having completed the payment (John 19:28, 30) before He physically died (Luke 23:46).

    No. You are arguing translation of απολεσαι. And you are also making he claim it is the "works" not the person being burned up citing 1 Corinthians 3:15 are you not?
    Yes - the sins are burned away and the person gets cleaned and purified and saved.

    It is a simple message in the Gospels of the universal forgiveness of sins and the reconciliation of humanity to God - the reconciliation of the children to their Father.
    You are not understanding the holy scripture how it disallows your view:
    Mark 10:15,
    Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

    The Greek 'ου μη' translated "shell not" actually means, "not in any way."
    And this corresponds to what Jesus told Nicodemus:
    John 3:3,
    . . . Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. . . .

    The Greek 'ου δυναται' translated "cannot" actually means "cannot possibly."
    The requirement to be born of God disallows your view altogether. If you fail to comprehend this . . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by James Cusick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    The dead soul - their consciousness - their worm does not die (Mark 9:48; as Jesus suffered on the cross (Isaiah 53:10; Psalm 22:6). There is NO eternal life in Hell both the body and soul being dead.
    In this you are half way there - that there is no eternal life in a Hell - and that the soul is thereby dead.

    Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. KJV.

    Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. KJV

    It says this all through the Bible that the sins cause death and God will forgive the sins and make clean the unclean and everyone gets saved into eternal life.
    The holy scripture nowhere promises everyone gets saved. Nowhere.
    In the second death both the body and soul dies (Matthew 10:28), only their worm never dies and the fire is not quenched (Mark 9:48).

    Quote Originally Posted by James Cusick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    That is your false conclusion. It is the second death (Revelation 21:8).
    The second death means dead to sin.

    This is not complicated.

    And it is simple to see that death does not mean eternal life in torture and torment.
    There is no eternal life in hell fire. There is only second death of the body and soul (Matthew 10:28) where their worm is what never dies (Mark 9:48).

    Quote Originally Posted by James Cusick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    To be Lord of all, not Savior of the dead but their Judge (Romans 14:9-11)
    Human judging is far different from God's Judging, see the Bible's Book of Judges.

    To Judge the dead by God includes our intercessor of Jesus Christ:
    ~ 1 Timothy 2:
    3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
    4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
    I already covered this. The Greek 'θελει' translated "will" in "will have all" means "wants" all. it does not mean all "will be" saved.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Cusick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    No, the born of God are exempt from the second death (Revelation 2:11; Revelation 21:7).
    If a person is already dead to sin = then there is no need to do that again.

    I do believe that many in this life who claim to be "saved" and claim to be "born of God" and who claim to be "dead to sin" might find them self as in need of the second death before they can enter into the real salvation.
    The ones who have eternal life now know God (John 17:3; 1 John 5:12, 13; Romans 8:16). Your arguments are nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Cusick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    No. The prophecy of Isaiah 53:6 (1-12) is in the past tense. It was already counted as done. And was done when Jesus died in His soul on the cross before He physically died (John 19:30)
    .

    Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    It says = all sin - then all are saved.

    This same message is repeated all through the Bible.
    Again, Nowhere in the whole Bible is it taught everyone gets saved.


    Quote Originally Posted by James Cusick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    The gift has to be received in this life (Hebrews 9:27)
    .
    It does not say as your claim - it does not say that at all.

    Hebrews 9:
    27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
    28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
    -----
    It says "unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation"

    The first is a physical death where we die only once, the second death to sin does not mean to die again - it means salvation unto life eternal.

    This message is very plain and simple. See also James 5:20
    Saying your false teaching does not make it true.

    Your argument is not found in the holy scriptures.

    Revelation 21:7-8,
    He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


    Revelation 21:27,
    . . . And there shall in no way enter into it <the new Jerusalem> any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


    Revelation 20:15,
    And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Cusick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Jesus is the reason why names are in the book of life, so little childern are safe. Names can be blotted out (Revelation 20:15). That is why Jesus said one must become as a little child (Mark 10:14-15) and be born over (John 3:3) in order to even see God's kingdom. Else their name will be blotted out (Psalm 69:27-28).
    Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    You are just rejecting the plain and simple message of salvation.

    As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
    See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

    The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.
    No, I accept God's plain simple gospel of Christ.

    1 Corinthians 15;3-4,
    . . . For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . .

    Romans 1:16,
    For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . .

    ___________

    Let us try a different approach. How you came to your view point. Step by step. And how you had believed before you came to your current view..
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  2. #142
    tWebber
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    How then does this fit in:-
    Ezekiel 3:18-19
    When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ but you do not warn him, and you fail to speak in order to warn the wicked one to turn from his wicked course so that he may stay alive, he will die for his error because he is wicked, but I will ask his blood back from you. 19 But if you warn someone wicked and he does not turn back from his wickedness and from his wicked . . .
    BU

  3. #143
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Cusick View Post
    The reason that every person throughout humanity does get SAVED is because Jesus paid the punishment (or penalty) in full for all of humanity, and so not even one (1) sinful sheep will remain lost or left out.

    Every claim contrary to that simple truth is just human fear and confusion and absurdities.

    We are to love our enemies just as God loves His enemies = Matthew 5:43-48, and love does not burn people in torment and there is no place of Hell.

    As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
    See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

    The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.
    This is horrific eisegesis. Perhaps I will respond in a bit more depth in the coming days.
    [I]f what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. … The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 Jn 2.24; 5.12, LEB)

    <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>


    Farewell. (Sat., 24 Mar. 2018)

  4. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  5. #144
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Cusick View Post
    The reason that every person throughout humanity does get SAVED is because Jesus paid the punishment (or penalty) in full for all of humanity, and so not even one (1) sinful sheep will remain lost or left out.
    Your argument is that if the scope of the atonement is indeed universal, everyone for whom Christ died will unavoidably be saved. Put another way, the extent of the atonement is coextensive with the final number of the redeemed. This argument, whilst a faulty one, is typically urged by high Calvinists in order to demonstrate the (purported) untenability of an unlimited atonement alongside only a limited number of humans inheriting salvation.

    The reason why this logic fails is that the procurement of salvation and its application are distinct. When salvation is rightly understood as conditional in nature, it is not inconceivable that some for whom Christ died will fail to receive the benefits of the salvation he procured. The conditions of salvation are expressed in the New Testament. Christ may be accepted or rejected by those who hear the proclamation of the good news. This is in no way negates the fact that Christ died for all and calls all persons to obey the gospel in the present age.


    Quote Originally Posted by James Cusick View Post
    Every claim contrary to that simple truth is just human fear and confusion and absurdities.

    We are to love our enemies just as God loves His enemies = Matthew 5:43-48, and love does not burn people in torment and there is no place of Hell.
    Your citation of Matthew 5:43–48 pertains to enemy-love; it is not pertinent to the issue of whether some persons will be irrevocably condemned in the age to come. Moreover, in the very same Gospel Jesus explicitly admonishes his disciples to fear God (see Matt. 10:28). The fear believers are warned against is the fear of fellow human beings, for humans are only capable of inflicting harm in the current age. The reason why Jesus-followers are to fear God is that he alone has the authority to cast persons into Gehenna, a place of eschatological punishment. Not one of the references to Gehenna in Matthew’s Gospel provides any indication that those who are assigned this destiny will at last be restored to God.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Cusick View Post
    As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
    See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

    The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.
    In 1 Corinthians 3:15 Paul is not addressing the fate of non-believers. The ‘fire’ in view is therefore not to be conflated with the lake of fire in Revelation 20:14–15 and 21:8. The fiery lake in the Apocalypse is not restorative in nature. Those who are cast into it are irretrievably lost.
    [I]f what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. … The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 Jn 2.24; 5.12, LEB)

    <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>


    Farewell. (Sat., 24 Mar. 2018)

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