Everyone gets Saved, and there is no Hell:

[mossrose]

Oh, another universalist. Well, what about the folk who don't want to be saved? Forcing them to be in God's presence would still be hell for them. Keep in mind that I believe hell is a state of shame and not a place of fire and torture.

I agree with this except for the last statement.

[Littlejoe]

He has said he believes nonbelievers will repent at or around Final Judgement, if I understood him correctly. Under that model, I guess he'd say they would "call on him" then.

Oh I know...this isn't my first universalist rodeo...and like Gerbz, I'm sympathetic to the view, but it doesn't stand up to scriptural scrutiny. It simply doesn't explain why Paul makes the statement I quoted. There's no need for Paul and all the other Apostles (except John of course) to die for the Gospel if there's no reason to preach the Gospel. Rather silly to decide to die for the Gospel when it's utterly pointless wouldn't you say?

[Bisto]

Oh I know...this isn't my first universalist rodeo...and like Gerbz, I'm sympathetic to the view, but it doesn't stand up to scriptural scrutiny. It simply doesn't explain why Paul makes the statement I quoted. There's no need for Paul and all the other Apostles (except John of course) to die for the Gospel if there's no reason to preach the Gospel. Rather silly to decide to die for the Gospel when it's utterly pointless wouldn't you say?

Yup. I guess I was just nitpicking and saving one round of this to get to the core more quickly :p

[Trout]

That one has no ammo for a realistic discussion for this topic.

James, I'm avoiding piling on, you can thank me later. It seems as though you have enough to address which you have yet to do in a realistic manner.

[37818]

Romans 10 pretty much blows this premise out of the water. The Apostle Paul felt it VERY important to "convince others"...



It clearly says that the ones who will be saved are those "...who call on him."

Yes.

It needs to be further pointed out,

it explicitly says "How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed?" And, "For with the heart one believes and is justified, . . ." One is saved by God's grace provided by the finished work of Christ "through faith" in Him (Ephesians 2:8; John 5:24).

[37818]

<snip> . . . Keep in mind that I believe hell is a state of shame and not a place of fire and torture.

". . . in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, . . . I am tormented in this flame. . . . I pray thee therefore, father [Abraham], that thou wouldest send him [Lazarus in Abraham's arms] to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. . . ." -- Luke 16:19-31.

Moses wrote what God said: ". . . For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, . . ." -- Deuteronomy 32:22.

[James Cusick]

Reply:

But if God himself has to end up "burning away their sins", then the whole "raising his children" idea is silly.

It might be childish but I do not see it as silly, and we people who do the sins are the ones who are being childish.

As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.

When raising children and the child gets low grades in school or they can not stand up against the bullies - then the parents raise the child through their difficulties.

[James Cusick]

Reply:

Let's go with that analogy. We know that not everyone on the Titanic was saved, only those that got into the lifeboats. Now suppose you went around telling everyone not to worry that they were all safe! No need to run to the lifeboats, because the Titanic was not sinking after all and they would not be drowned.

That is what you are doing. You are telling everyone that they don't have to do anything and they are safe from hell. Go on murdering, killing, stealing. It doesn't matter because they are saved regardless! No need to repent! No need to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior! Just go about their lives and they will end up in heaven. If people believe you and you are wrong, you are basically condemning people to hell who might have been saved, and definitely making sure that some people who might have accepted Jesus and been better people, instead keep on being selfish and evil.

Nice work!

That is because there are two (2) kinds of salvation = a physical salvation in this life, and the spiritual salvation after death.

The spiritual salvation is already paid in full by Jesus so every person throughout humanity gets saved after death.

But the physical salvation here on earth means being saved from such things as from addiction, saved from ignorance and despair, saved from violence and cruelty, saved from suffering and disease and crime, etc etc etc.

If one accepts the fact that they are saved after death - then if they start sinning by murder or stealing or lies then they will "reap as ye sow" by having a troubled conscience and by the Police who will prosecute any criminal.

There is justice in this world and in this life time, and later after death comes mercy and forgiveness.

[James Cusick]

Reply:

Here we have some agreement.

The message of Jesus Christ is one of hope and forgiveness and that is the message that should be preached. Yes, it is true that many preachers slander God by attributing to Him actions/motivations which are unjust - the gospel isn't about fear but to hear some preachers one would think otherwise.

That said, it is sin that brings death and separation from God (and not God Himself) so to the extent that you're tossing out the consequences of sin in an effort to defend God would be the extent to which I'd consider you wrong.

The consequences of sin and death are real - the error is attributing them to God - the solution isn't pretending they don't exist.

REPEAT:
That is because there are two (2) kinds of salvation = a physical salvation in this life, and the spiritual salvation after death.

The spiritual salvation is already paid in full by Jesus so every person throughout humanity gets saved after death.

But the physical salvation here on earth means being saved from such things as from addiction, saved from ignorance and despair, saved from violence and cruelty, saved from suffering and disease and crime, etc etc etc.

If one accepts the fact that they are saved after death - then if they start sinning by murder or stealing or lies then they will "reap as ye sow" by having a troubled conscience and by the Police who will prosecute any criminal.

There is justice in this world and in this life time, and later after death comes mercy and forgiveness.

[James Cusick]

Reply:

Romans 10 pretty much blows this premise out of the water. The Apostle Paul felt it VERY important to "convince others"...

...

It clearly says that the ones who will be saved are those "...who call on him."

REPEAT:
That is because there are two (2) kinds of salvation = a physical salvation in this life, and the spiritual salvation after death.

The spiritual salvation is already paid in full by Jesus so every person throughout humanity gets saved after death.

But the physical salvation here on earth means being saved from such things as from addiction, saved from ignorance and despair, saved from violence and cruelty, saved from suffering and disease and crime, etc etc etc.

If one accepts the fact that they are saved after death - then if they start sinning by murder or stealing or lies then they will "reap as ye sow" by having a troubled conscience and by the Police who will prosecute any criminal.

There is justice in this world and in this life time, and later after death comes mercy and forgiveness.

[James Cusick]

Reply:

The word Hades was also used as a term for the underworld or afterlife.

In the Greek language yes, and in the Greek religion yes, but in English the word Hades simply means the grave for deceased dead bodies.

As does the English word "hell" meant the grave for the dead.

Jesus most certainly did teach about the afterlife, and about rewards and punishments.

Yes Jesus taught about the forgiveness of sins and of paying the full penalty on the cross.

In this world and in this life we suffer the sins, but after death comes salvation to all.

In 2 Peter Tartarus is specifically mentioned(although often translated as "hell"), which was the Greek version of what people today call Hell. Elysium was their version of "Heaven". Sharing certain concepts doesn't require sharing theology. Just like Muslims have their version of Heaven where good Muslim men get at least 72 virgins. As well as their own version of hell, which is extremely similar to Dante's Inferno.

The sacrifice of Jesus paid the penalty for everyone - including the Greeks and the Muslims and every person who ever lived or died.

Even the fallen Angels and Demons get saved through Jesus Christ.

[James Cusick]

Reply:

The apostle Paul warns, ". . . For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. . ." -- 2 Corinthians 5:10-11.

I agree with this, that we all need to strive to do right and to serve God, and people do get terrorized so easily, so yes at the Judgement seat of Christ people will be stunned, but at that time everyone will be a believer and everyone will become repentant and as said = "every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." Romans 14:11

But every human being will have Jesus standing before them as our advocate declaring our sins forgiven and our punishment paid in full.


-------------------------------------

Jim,
This is a theist only area. If you do not have permission to post here from the OP and the mod staff, you will have to cease posting.

If I have any say in it - since I started this thread topic - then I say that person is welcome here as is anyone interested.

This is for the unorthodox.

[Sparko]

It might be childish but I do not see it as silly, and we people who do the sins are the ones who are being childish.

As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.

When raising children and the child gets low grades in school or they can not stand up against the bullies - then the parents raise the child through their difficulties.

That is not a passage about the lake of fire. It is an analogy. He is saying that if someone is saved but doesn't do good works, his works will be destroyed but he will still be saved. It is not talking about the lake of fire at all. And it is not talking about all men. But those that are already saved.

[Sparko]

That is because there are two (2) kinds of salvation = a physical salvation in this life, and the spiritual salvation after death.

The spiritual salvation is already paid in full by Jesus so every person throughout humanity gets saved after death.

But the physical salvation here on earth means being saved from such things as from addiction, saved from ignorance and despair, saved from violence and cruelty, saved from suffering and disease and crime, etc etc etc.

If one accepts the fact that they are saved after death - then if they start sinning by murder or stealing or lies then they will "reap as ye sow" by having a troubled conscience and by the Police who will prosecute any criminal.

There is justice in this world and in this life time, and later after death comes mercy and forgiveness.

As we have said, IF YOU ARE WRONG and those who do not accept Christ as Lord are NOT saved, then by your preaching that they are all saved anyway, you are condemning them to death in hell. Just like if you were on the Titanic and went around preaching that they didn't need to get in the lifeboats. No matter how sincere you are, if you are wrong, you are condemning souls to hell that might have been saved if not for your wrong teaching.

[Bill the Cat]

If I have any say in it - since I started this thread topic - then I say that person is welcome here as is anyone interested.

This is for the unorthodox.

You have SOME leeway on who you will allow in your thread, but permission must be SPECIFICALLY granted by a moderator and before a post is made.