Everyone gets Saved, and there is no Hell:

[James Cusick]

Reply:

Last time I discussed with an Universalist years ago, one of the points I made and which I think is important has to do with Repentance. Salvation comes about through repentance and faith (I think we can all agree that both of those can only come about by the grace of God).

The Universalist I discussed with believed that the Lake of Fire/Gehenna/"Hell" as orthodox Christianity understands it, was a place of 'purifying fire' and that people who end up there --Satan included-- would eventually repent, and therefore be saved in the end. To him, my basic reply was that he was ignoring the basic significance of Judgment Day, and all the passages that convey the 'ultimateness' of the judgment/hell/shame/destruction/whatever.

You, on the other hand, seem to believe they will repent on Judgment Day itself. What, then, do you make of passages that affirm that some WILL be judged unfavorably -- e.g. some people will go to Jesus' proverbial left hand, names not found on the book of life, enemies of YHWH finally shamed, carcasses outside, dogs outside, etc.?

My understanding is that we are to use the Bible to give definition and interpretation to itself - the Bible to the Bible.

As such the Bible has a book called Judges, and in that Book of Judges it tells us what the Judges do and about judgements and thereby it tells us what to expect on the Judgement Day.

The Judges and the Judgements were to teach people of their wrongs and to instruct them in doing right, and it was never a Judgement like human Courts where a person is judged as guilty or not guilty.

The human way of Judging it is not the judgement way of God our Father.

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Yes.

It needs to be further pointed out,

it explicitly says "How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed?" And, "For with the heart one believes and is justified, . . ." One is saved by God's grace provided by the finished work of Christ "through faith" in Him (Ephesians 2:8; John 5:24).

Jesus does the calling - the people are His defendants.

People are saved by grace - not by calling out or by believing.

[Sparko]

My understanding is that we are to use the Bible to give definition and interpretation to itself - the Bible to the Bible.

As such the Bible has a book called Judges, and in that Book of Judges it tells us what the Judges do and about judgements and thereby it tells us what to expect on the Judgement Day.

Wait. WHAT?

Have you even read the book of Judges or the Bible? I mean actually read it, like all the way through, and not just a verse here or there to cherry pick for your strange view. Because you are showing that you have absolutely no idea what the bible is about and especially the book of Judges.

Go and read it. I will wait. I don't want to spoil it for you.

[James Cusick]

Reply:

". . . in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, . . . I am tormented in this flame. . . . I pray thee therefore, father [Abraham], that thou wouldest send him [Lazarus in Abraham's arms] to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. . . ." -- Luke 16:19-31.

That is a parable, and Jesus used the parables so that the sinful blind could not see the real meaning.

Moses wrote what God said: ". . . For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, . . ." -- Deuteronomy 32:22.

That fire is to clean and purify after death ~ hell (sheol) means the grave.

As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15


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You have SOME leeway on who you will allow in your thread, but permission must be SPECIFICALLY granted by a moderator and before a post is made.

May I seek forgiveness for us both, and plead for clemency?

If just a little leeway.

[James Cusick]

Reply:

As we have said, IF YOU ARE WRONG and those who do not accept Christ as Lord are NOT saved, then by your preaching that they are all saved anyway, you are condemning them to death in hell. Just like if you were on the Titanic and went around preaching that they didn't need to get in the lifeboats. No matter how sincere you are, if you are wrong, you are condemning souls to hell that might have been saved if not for your wrong teaching.

That perspective of belief is a huge mistake by most Christians and I am long past that.

Jesus tells people to believe and be saved, but that belief is meant to just be the doorway and not the destination.

After we first believe then we are to step inside the door and our belief grows into certainty and it is no longer a belief but to know.

Christopher Columbus believed the earth was round, but after sailing the ocean then Columbus knew the truth.

The same with me in that I do not say that I believe that there is no such place as hell - because I know there is not.

I know that God is love, who even loves His enemies, and I know that decent human beings would never accept other people in torment, and I know that the scriptures do not teach such a horrible doctrine of inhumanity as is the Hell doctrine.

So no - it is not a matter that I might be wrong.

And just for the record - if I were wrong - then I would go to the Hell with my fellow sinners - and I would rebel against the evil monster of a God.

If any person was in a place like Hell then would any of you seek to rescue them? I would try to rescue any of you.

[37818]

That is a parable, and Jesus used the parables so that the sinful blind could not see the real meaning.

Two issues: Since when is Abraham, Moses and the Prophets in a parable? And what evidence that telling was a parable?

That fire is to clean and purify after death ~ hell (sheol) means the grave.

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

Ah, so graves have fire in them.

[Bill the Cat]

That perspective of belief is a huge mistake by most Christians and I am long past that.

Jesus tells people to believe and be saved, but that belief is meant to just be the doorway and not the destination.

After we first believe then we are to step inside the door and our belief grows into certainty and it is no longer a belief but to know.

Christopher Columbus believed the earth was round, but after sailing the ocean then Columbus knew the truth.

The same with me in that I do not say that I believe that there is no such place as hell - because I know there is not.

I know that God is love, who even loves His enemies, and I know that decent human beings would never accept other people in torment, and I know that the scriptures do not teach such a horrible doctrine of inhumanity as is the Hell doctrine.

So no - it is not a matter that I might be wrong.

And just for the record - if I were wrong - then I would go to the Hell with my fellow sinners - and I would rebel against the evil monster of a God.

If any person was in a place like Hell then would any of you seek to rescue them? I would try to rescue any of you.

sonny.gif

[James Cusick]

Reply:

So maybe now it is down to just you and I to discuss this topic. ~ Mosheim, TN 37818

Two issues: Since when is Abraham, Moses and the Prophets in a parable? And what evidence that telling was a parable?

We can see that it is a parable because it is a story just like the other parables.

As like the parable of the wedding party was not a story of a real wedding.

When Jesus is recorded as NOT speaking a parable then Jesus speaks very precisely, as like Jesus said to "bless this" and "bless that" and He said to do this and do not that.

Plus if we accept the literal interpretation of that story then that message would contradict the other clearly worded instructions from Jesus about love and forgiveness and of charity to all.

As like where Jesus says to "Love thy enemies" Matthew 5:43-48, because Jesus explains this doctrine in specific details, so this kind of speech to love thy enemy is no parable.

Another BIG point is that if Jesus were really preaching that horrific message as from the Greek Hades, then Jesus would have had an obligation to speak it plainly, as like saying = I tell thee all that if ye do not do as I say then God will burn ye all in the fires of my Hell forever and I Jesus can not or will not save thee from that.

Jesus never said any such doctrine as that, and in fact He preached the exact opposite by preaching the forgiveness of sins.

If that place of Hell were true then it needed to be said straight and blunt and clear, and then it would need to be said again in each Epistle from each Disciple or Apostle that we must do as we are told or else burn for all eternity in torture, and that kind of message must not be told in some vague parable or clever story or left for us to interpret that from the Greek words.

What the Bible does teach clearly is declared by Jesus when He says this:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
KJV ~ Mark 12:28-34

Jesus teaches the very opposite of any Hell, as in Jesus paid the punishment for all sins paid in full for every person, that not even one sinful sheep would be lost or left out, that God loves enemies, God loves sinners, God loves humanity, God loves the world (John 3:16), and none of those are contradicted.

Ah, so graves have fire in them.

From the old (elder) Testament through the New (newer) Testament the word "fire" is used for cleaning and purifying and that "fire" is a blessing from God.

So even if fire was a cursing then God is using it to chastise those He loves, and not to torture God's enemies.

[37818]

I hold the view point the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable.

I hold the view point that on account that Christ died for all (2 Corinthians 5:14-15) that He paid for the sins of all mankind. So I hold the view that everyone's name is in the Book of Life.

Names get blotted out (Revelation 20:15; Revelation 21:8; Revelation 21:1, 27; Psalm 69:27-28).

I hold the view that Christ is the true vine (John 15:1). And that everyone is in the vine by reason Christ died for everyone. Those who do not remain in Him are removed (John 15:2, 6; 2 John 9; John 8:24).

I hold the view point that Christ having died for everyone will either be their Savior or their condemning Judge (Romans 14:9-11). The living are the saved the dead are the lost.

If God after all is said in the Holy Scriptures, restores everyone, the Holy Scriptures do not tell me this.

[Sparko]

Another BIG point is that if Jesus were really preaching that horrific message as from the Greek Hades, then Jesus would have had an obligation to speak it plainly, as like saying = I tell thee all that if ye do not do as I say then God will burn ye all in the fires of my Hell forever and I Jesus can not or will not save thee from that.

You mean like:

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 23:33
You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Matthew 7:23
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Philippians 1:28
This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.

[Littlejoe]

REPEAT:
That is because there are two (2) kinds of salvation = a physical salvation in this life, and the spiritual salvation after death.

The spiritual salvation is already paid in full by Jesus so every person throughout humanity gets saved after death.

But the physical salvation here on earth means being saved from such things as from addiction, saved from ignorance and despair, saved from violence and cruelty, saved from suffering and disease and crime, etc etc etc.

If one accepts the fact that they are saved after death - then if they start sinning by murder or stealing or lies then they will "reap as ye sow" by having a troubled conscience and by the Police who will prosecute any criminal.

There is justice in this world and in this life time, and later after death comes mercy and forgiveness.

Well, you are wrong. There is no salvation after death. Please provide scriptural support for this view.

Thanks.

[Jedidiah]

James, Christians will use the Bible as support for their beliefs. While we do not agree on every detail 100% we do see it as authoritative. You seem to base your arguments on assertions, and you pick and choose what Bible teachings to accept and which to "reinterpret" to suit yourself.

[Sparko]

James, Christians will use the Bible as support for their beliefs. While we do not agree on every detail 100% we do see it as authoritative. You seem to base your arguments on assertions, and you pick and choose what Bible teachings to accept and which to "reinterpret" to suit yourself.

he is starting to remind me of Mickiel. If he starts worrying about page views...

[rogue06]

he is starting to remind me of Mickiel. If he starts worrying about page views...

Grow thread grow.

[Bill the Cat]

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[rogue06]

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More suitable for Mickey since he walked in the darkness

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