Is Baptism a Requirement for Salvation?

[Bill the Cat]

Okay, fine.

Post-Jesus, baptism is a requirement for salvation. 1 Peter 3:2

I vehemently disagree that God changed the rules.

Pretty much every Christian until quite recently held that Baptism is necessary for salvation. Apparently they were all without the Holy Spirit.

It was so entwined with the salvation experience that it was seen as part of joining the body. However, there was much disagreement on when it should be done and what would happen should one commit a "mortal sin" after baptism.

[One Bad Pig]

I vehemently disagree that God changed the rules.

New covenant, new rules. On the other hand, salvation has never been about following the rules; it's about why one does so.

[Bill the Cat]

New covenant, new rules.

The Old Covenant had nothing to do with salvation anyway.

On the other hand, salvation has never been about following the rules; it's about why one does so.

[One Bad Pig]

The Old Covenant had nothing to do with salvation anyway.

Not sure I agree with that. We're getting a bit off-topic though.

[Jedidiah]

What causes the urge to make salvation dependent upon ritual?

[Livelystone]

What causes the urge to make salvation dependent upon ritual?

According to Hebrews chapter 6 verses 1 and 2 that describe the foundational doctrines that are necessary before perfection can even be hoped for, it is a doctrine of “baptisms” and the word is plural for a reason!

All one needs to do to see what is necessary for “salvation” is look at the pattern that God showed Moses on Mount seen in the design of the Old Testament tabernacle. If it is understood (as it should be) that the rooms in the tabernacle are an allegory of God appearing within his chosen people, then what is seen on the outside of the rooms in the outer court is where a priest had to fulfill his duties before going into the tabernacle.

As we know the sacrificial altar was fulfilled by the cross and the laver made from the crushed mirrors is where one could see their reflection in the water is an allegory for our water baptism, a.k.a. washed in pure water of the Word, where as we grow in knowledge of the Word we begin to see Him in our reflection!

1 Corinthians 13: 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known

Since our experience at the Cross of Jesus Christ is the 1st step in the long process of our sanctification, in my opinion it is pertinent that we do not start thinking we can eliminate any of the steps that are spoken of by the apostles, Jesus Christ, and/or seen in the prophecy of the tabernacle in the wilderness.

[Bill the Cat]

According to Hebrews chapter 6 verses 1 and 2 that describe the foundational doctrines that are necessary before perfection can even be hoped for, it is a doctrine of “baptisms” and the word is plural for a reason!

That is taken well out of context. The perfection spoken of here by the writer of Hebrews is maturity in doctrine, not salvation.

All one needs to do to see what is necessary for “salvation” is look at the pattern that God showed Moses on Mount seen in the design of the Old Testament tabernacle.

Wrong. All one needs to do to see what is necessary for salvation is to look at the actions of the thief on the cross. He confessed his sin and confessed Jesus as Lord and King. Upon that confession, Jesus declared that the thief would be in paradise - the place of the righteous.

If it is understood (as it should be) that the rooms in the tabernacle are an allegory of God appearing within his chosen people, then what is seen on the outside of the rooms in the outer court is where a priest had to fulfill his duties before going into the tabernacle.

The earthly tabernacle is a type of the temple in heaven.

As we know the sacrificial altar was fulfilled by the cross and the laver made from the crushed mirrors is where one could see their reflection in the water is an allegory for our water baptism, a.k.a. washed in pure water of the Word, where as we grow in knowledge of the Word we begin to see Him in our reflection!

The instructions for the laver were only for the Levites, and they only washed their hands and feet. This is not akin to full imersion of baptism. Additionally, it was used before AND after the priest entered the Holy Place, so again, this multiple washing ritual is not akin to the once performed baptism.

1 Corinthians 13: 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known

Since our experience at the Cross of Jesus Christ is the 1st step in the long process of our sanctification, in my opinion it is pertinent that we do not start thinking we can eliminate any of the steps that are spoken of by the apostles, Jesus Christ, and/or seen in the prophecy of the tabernacle in the wilderness.

Since the "step" of baptism was not performed on virtually anyone in the Old Testament, it is not necessary for salvation.

[Livelystone]

Thank you for your reply.

That is taken well out of context. The perfection spoken of here by the writer of Hebrews is maturity in doctrine, not salvation.

The quote “any text out of context is pretext” is not quoting anything in the Bible nor did it come from God.

Context starts in Ge.1 and ends in Re.22. Perfection is what Paul and Jesus both told us to obtain, and the only way that will be achieved is if it is given to us by God. However, anyone not having their docrines in order that is a direct cause of their faith not being what it should be is NOT going to be moved forward into perfection......... that you can take to the bank

Jesus Christ is perfection and Jesus Christ is the MorningStar. For those who overcome as he overcame they will be given the gift of the “morning Star” aka perfection.

RE .2: 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations early 2

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star

Wrong. All one needs to do to see what is necessary for salvation is to look at the actions of the thief on the cross. He confessed his sin and confessed Jesus as Lord and King. Upon that confession, Jesus declared that the thief would be in paradise - the place of the righteous.

That thief was going to die without ever committing another sin, something that your normal Christian will not achieve in between the time when they 1st accept Jesus Christ and when they die. One thing you can be sure of that is no sin will ever make it into heaven.

[/I]I]

The earthly tabernacle is a type of the temple in heaven.

And just who do you think the temples (Tabernacle) in heaven are representative of? Are we not temples, is not our body a earthly (tent) tabernacle?

The instructions for the laver were only for the Levites, and they only washed their hands and feet. This is not akin to full imersion of baptism. Additionally, it was used before AND after the priest entered the Holy Place, so again, this multiple washing ritual is not akin to the once performed baptism.

Since the "step" of baptism was not performed on virtually anyone in the Old Testament, it is not necessary for salvation.

The point I'm making is there are multiple baptisms yet there is only one completed product that is a result of all the doctrines of baptisms being performed and completed. Jesus Christ, said He would baptize us with fire, and He did with the importation of the Holy Spirit given unto us.

[Bill the Cat]

Thank you for your reply.

Ditto.

The quote “any text out of context is pretext” is not quoting anything in the Bible nor did it come from God.

It's "prooftext" not "pretext", and I never stated anything like that. I merely said you were ignoring the context of that verse.

Context starts in Ge.1 and ends in Re.22.

Perfection is what Paul and Jesus both told us to obtain, and the only way that will be achieved is if it is given to us by God.

No one can obtain perfection in this life.

However, anyone not having their docrines in order that is a direct cause of their faith not being what it should be is NOT going to be moved forward into perfection......... that you can take to the bank

And if I can falsify a doctrine that someone holds, then it is superfluous and not what the writer of Hebrews was referring to.

Jesus Christ is perfection and Jesus Christ is the MorningStar. For those who overcome as he overcame they will be given the gift of the “morning Star” aka perfection.

In heaven.

That thief was going to die without ever committing another sin, something that your normal Christian will not achieve in between the time when they 1st accept Jesus Christ and when they die.

Irrelivant. Salvation is not a yo-yo that you lose and regain with every sin/repentacne cycle.

One thing you can be sure of that is no sin will ever make it into heaven.

Since they are covered by Christ's blood, you are correct.

And just who do you think the temples (Tabernacle) in heaven are representative of?

Itself.

Are we not temples, is not our body a earthly (tent) tabernacle?

But never are we equated to the temple in heaven.

The point I'm making is there are multiple baptisms yet there is only one completed product that is a result of all the doctrines of baptisms being performed and completed.

Then I'll ask you the same question I ask all baptismal regeneration proponents... when did anyone in the Old Testament get baptized?

Jesus Christ, said He would baptize us with fire, and He did with the importation of the Holy Spirit given unto us.

And one must have been saved for the Holy Spirit to indwell them.

[KingsGambit]

In his Kept by the Power of God, which is primarily written to argue against eternal security, I.H. Marshall rightfully points to verses such as 1 John 2:1, Galatians 6:1, and Revelation 2:20-22 to argue against the claim that the NT indicates perfection in this lifetime. It is an ideal to strive for but not an ideal that our salvation depends on us upholding (the exact point of the aforementioned 1 John passage).

[Livelystone]

It is not a matter of us obtaining perfection, but instead the seed that is Christ in us being fed the truth and maturing into the fullness of Christ in us the hope of glory.

This is why the doctrine of baptisms is so important because without the fullness of all baptisms being been completed by the individual, in addition to the knowledge of the other foundational doctrines being fulfilled, perfection it is not obtainable.

If perfection is not obtainable that makes the words of Jesus and the apostle Paul to be of no effect.

Luke 6:40
 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Luke 6:39-41

John 17:23 
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

We have entered into the 3rd day when Jesus said the Temple of his body would be perfected that is the fulfillment of God's plan in Genesis 1: 26. How else can we become holy without being 1st made perfect?


1 Peter 1:16
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

[Bill the Cat]

This is why the doctrine of baptisms is so important because without the fullness of all baptisms being been completed by the individual, in addition to the knowledge of the other foundational doctrines being fulfilled, perfection it is not obtainable.

So, are you saying that the Old Testament saints are not able to be perfected?

[Livelystone]

So, are you saying that the Old Testament saints are not able to be perfected?

No, I did not say that!

In fact, the Scriptures say that they without us shall not be made perfect! Perfection is something that comes from God however selection does on our part require knowledge of certain things. (He.6:1-2)

Before we go on would you please explain to me where you get your information about the laver of the tabernacle in the wilderness being used only for the washing of the hands and feet of the Levitical priest?

[jesusfreak]

Here's my two cents. A physical baptism isn't required to be saved because when John the baptist said is in Mark 1:8 I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. John the baptist was refering to Jesus as baptizing with the holy spirit. So when we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior Christ baptizes us with the holy spirit and when we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior we then become believers and brothers and sisters in Christ. I haven't read anything in the bible that says you have to be physically baptized in order to be saved. I do believe that Jesus said he is the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the father exept through him. So in his statement Christ is the only way we are saved not by being baptized because if all we had to do is be baptized to be saved then there would be no reason for Christ and that is against everything the bible teaches.

[Bill the Cat]

If you will accept my apologies, I am not available at the present to respond. I am on my last week at my current job with no real prospect on where I am going next. My situation would probably elicit a less than hospitable response at the present, so please forgive me for putting this off for a few weeks.

Thanks

Bill